Earlier this week I criticized several comments Abyss2hope made in reference to the experiences of male victims. She was none too pleased with my criticism, and made that clear in her follow-up response. We also had a somewhat spirited debate in which she made several intriguing accusations about my concern for male victims. I will not mention what they were as she deleted all of her comments and mines, which the exception of the first.
However, the reason I am making this follow-up post is because I noticed this morning that I was linked to her Carnival against Sexual Violence. The carnival is a collection of blog posts about sexual violence against women. What perturbed me was not that she linked to one of my posts about female rapists, but how the post was listed and how she framed it. (Note: if my link is no longer visible it is because I requested she remove it. You can view a print screen version of the comments here.)
Regardless of her personal opinion of me, which are apparently so low as to consider such comments justifiable, her placement of a post that specifically focuses on male victims under the “Whatever” heading is disgusting and shameful. While she is more than entitled to her opinions, it is grossly disrespectful to dismiss male experiences in such a manner while claiming to want to stop all violence.
I want to make it clear that I have no intention or desire to create some sort of bizarre cross-posting flame war. My concern is about the purpose and intent behind such framing, the affect it has on male victims and how it affects the efforts of male victim advocates. It is incredibly sad when such a serious act as a boy being violently raped at knife-point is trivialized in this fashion.
UPDATE: Abyss2hope has changed the “whatever” category to “miscellany.” She also plans to revise the categories. One hopes that if any other articles, posts or comments about male victims are nominated again they will be placed along their female-counterparts.
Also, if anyone is posting inflammatory comments on A2h’s blog, please stop. That only gives credence to her claims about male advocates, but it is most importantly insulting to direct them at an abuse victim. Of course, as A2h heavily moderates her blog, it is not possible to know if any comments have been made. But for the sake of civility and general respect, regardless of whether it would be extended in the reverse, please refrain from making such comments.
TS: I’ve been dropping by your blog off and on ever since you popped up on a thread I had commented on over at thinking girl’s. I think you make a lot insightful points; I wish more people would read you.
I share your frustration with the reaction you’ve gotten at feminist blogs. One issue that greatly concerns me is circumcision. Like the experience you described, the typical reaction when one raises the issue at a feminist blog is to be shouted down and/or be labeled an “MRA”, which as you probably know is the feminist blog equivalent of being labeled a “Communist.” Instead of seeing the issue as one in which both men and women might bond to their mutual benefit, the suffering caused by genital mutilation is seen as some kind of weird team-based zero sum game. My trauma somehow diminishes your trauma, therefore my trauma must not exist.
I think there are many powerful and deeply entrenched cultural reasons why people resist extending empathy to male victims (particularly in the U.S.). It’s unfortunate that the way people divide themselves into gender-based ‘teams’ allows them to so easily forego examining this cultural bigotry with an open mind.
“I think there are many powerful and deeply entrenched cultural reasons why people resist extending empathy to male victims (particularly in the U.S.). It’s unfortunate that the way people divide themselves into gender-based ‘teams’ allows them to so easily forego examining this cultural bigotry with an open mind.”
Why do you state this “particularly in the U.S.” Can you name other places where teenage boys who are raped by either males or females get more help???
I’m curious as to what you think goes on in other places that is better then what we do here???
NYMOM: The rates of violence in the U.S. are far higher than they are in Japan, Canada, or Western Europe (indeed, I think they’re higher than anywhere else in the industrialized world). The overwhelming majority of this violence is committed by men, and most of it is against men. Because I don’t think people are naturally violent, I think this is a good barometer of certain kinds of pressures placed on men, and the options that men are taught to consider ‘acceptable’.
Not coincidentally, U.S. culture places a higher premium on male ‘independence’ than those other countries. Think of the underlying subtext to Western movies, the Horatio Alger myth, etc.
America has a powerful aversion towards male vulnerability. I recall a comment from one foreign film director, for example, who pointed out that there are certain kinds of stories and male characters that you can find in Europe that you won’t find in a Hollywood movie precisely because of this aversion. The typical U.S. reaction towards a male who is having difficulties or who has been victimized is that there is either a) something wrong with them, or b) there is something wrong with what they did. (This is true at times for women as well, but to a far lesser extent.)
I don’t know if other countries extend more help to male victims of rape or not, but I’d be shocked if any industrialized nation had a higher incidence of male rape victims than the U.S. (In other words, other countries may not have formal structures for handling the issue because it is so much rarer there than it is in the U.S.) But that’s simply my speculation, and if you can cite facts and figures that say otherwise I would certainly be open-minded about the issue.
‘I don’t know if other countries extend more help to male victims of rape or not, but I’d be shocked if any industrialized nation had a higher incidence of male rape victims than the U.S. (In other words, other countries may not have formal structures for handling the issue because it is so much rarer there than it is in the U.S.) But that’s simply my speculation, and if you can cite facts and figures that say otherwise I would certainly be open-minded about the issue.”
Well I can’t cite other facts or figures and apparently neither can you…which is why I was a little surprised at your comment about the US being so unsympathetic to male victims.
I mean, for instance, you think in Japan they are more sympathetic to male victims of any kind then they are here????
Pretty much the US, Canada, W. Europe, Australia and New Zealand are all very similar in how they handle these things as we are all pretty much a part of the same civilization (Western, Christian, Enlightenment). There is nothing extraordinary about how the US treats men.
Actually in France, they thought the US was pretty silly for charging Mary Kay LeTourneau with any crime after she raped a 12 year old student and had a child with him…
So knowing that where would you rate France versus the US for treatment of male victims?
NYMOM: I stand by my opinion that the U.S. is more averse to male vulnerability than other Western industrialized nations. As noted, it’s an inference I’ve drawn from things like comparative rates of violence, a pretty extensive understanding of American culture, and some limited exposure to foreign cultures. I respect your skepticism, though, and I’m not shocked that you’re reluctant to agree based solely on the evidence I’ve presented here; I’ve certainly made stronger arguments about other matters than I’ve made about this one.
As for Mary Kay LeTourneau, I have only your say-so that French attitudes towards what she did differed so significantly from American attitudes. Certainly some Americans also thought the charge was silly. However, I do find it plausible to believe that a higher percentage of the French thought that way; American attitudes towards sex as a whole tends to be more punitive and puritanical, while Western Europe tends to be comparatively libertine. This incident may represent an instance where the American attitude is more sensible than the French.
Cultures are not uniformly evolved in all matters. I think overall that Western Europe is more progressive politically, particularly in regards to worker rights. However, there are areas where they seem less advanced than the U.S., such as in understanding the dangers of nuclear power, the hazards of cigarette smoking, and (apparently) the damage which can be caused by sex between women and underage boys.
“I think overall that Western Europe is more progressive politically, particularly in regards to worker rights. However, there are areas where they seem less advanced than the U.S., such as in understanding the dangers of nuclear power, the hazards of cigarette smoking, and (apparently) the damage which can be caused by sex between women and underage boys.”
Well I’m glad to hear I opened your opinion about US attitudes.
BTW, France is not the only nation with that attitude, as I work in a very international environment and I heard it from people from many other places such as S. America, and even Italy.
To be honest I find the US ahead of many other places in this particular area.
BTW, I know exactly what you mean about the smoking cigarettes as well.
Sure -
Here in Denmark you can have sex with anyone who is over 15 as long as you are not in a position of power relative to that person.
In practice though, it is very much frowned upon if a man of 26 has sex with a girl of 15.
Not quite as much with genders reversed.
Hey Toy Soldier, check out my blog for some juicy NYMOM info.