Feminists Supporting Male Rape Fantasies

I freely admit that I have a certain dislike of the commentary on Alas a blog. In the past, both the site owner and the posters have engaged in tactless attacks against male victims of rape and abuse, belittling their experiences and resorting to open mockery and insults whenever anyone attempted to defend them. The one attempt to address male rape in a devoted thread devolved into a demand for male victims first pay tribute to female victims before they would even be acknowledged.  The site owner went so far as to create a a “male privilege checklist” in which he called rape against boys and men “negligible.”

While there have been many instances of hypocrisy on the blog over the years, none have reached the level as this latest instance. Mandolin posted an email she received from a reader. In the email the reader states:

I am currently dating a dude (bio and identified as such), and have been dating this dude for over two years. I tend to go to sleep a couple hours after him, which occasionally, and very consensually, results in my waking him up for a bit with nightnight sex, if he’s up for it. Tonight I started feelin’ it, looked over at him, saw how cute he looked, and found myself thinking very distinctly, in my inner stand-up comic voice, “Oh I am so gonna rape you– wait, what!?”

Now, I did not mean rape literally. What I meant was “wake you up with sexual advances that will lead to sex if accepted.” But my inner monologue went ahead and made a) a joke about rape that b) belitted what rape actually means and c) treated rape as rape-as-compliment!

My point in sending this e-mail is, how horribly pervasive rape culture can be — I look at someone I love, sexually desire them, and want to give them a hopefully pleasant midnight experience, and my broseph inner monologue compares that to rape. As if rape is just surprise sex! If they don’t want it they’re moody! Also I’m only doing it because they’re totes hot right now!

I’m just so, well, terrified that rape can come into my innermost thoughts as “boy, you are gonna love this unexpected goodness!” I spend a good part of my day finding and analysing the evidence of rape culture that show up in advertising, television, and social interactions, and yet my uncensored self still uses “rape” casually and incredibly inappropriately. Horrible and amazing, and something I’d love a comment on, if any of you have got the time.

To which Mandolin replied:

That’s really intense. I think we all have moments like that where it becomes weirdly clear how much our brains have been “colonized” by the dominant culture. For me, they’ll often be about internalized fatphobia, directed at myself and at other women.

I don’t know if there’s a way to get rid of such things entirely. Writer Nisi Shawl describes those quick-thought rising-from-your-subconscious bad reactions as being sort of your “lizard brain,” although obviously that’s metaphorical. We all have those kinds of bad reactions, but the point is to know why they’re bad, and then sculpt your action in the world around that.

Would you like us to post this on our blog and open it up for comment from others? People might learn from this, or have more substantive comments to add than mine — or feel relieved at seeing the ways other feminists experience and cope with mental “colonization.”

What follows in the comments is little more than applauding the woman for “the courage it took for [her] to write what she did [and] to embrace this level of vulnerability takes a kind of bravery that few people have and that many who might have it are unwilling to act on.”

Let us imagine for a moment that a man wrote an email stating that he looked at girlfriend and thought “Oh I am so gonna rape you– wait, what!?” The reaction from the feminists on Alas would hardly be to applaud the man for noting how pervasive “rape culture” is. No one, absolutely no one, on that site would ever commend a man for admitting he fantasized about raping his girlfriend.

Yet, not only do the majority of the comments do just that, no one, not one single person, bothers to acknowledge that this woman is writing off very dangerous thinking as essentially not her fault or responsibility. “Rape culture” is to blame. She does not spend the day thinking about her own behavior, but instead “finding and analysing the evidence of rape culture that show up in advertising, television, and social interactions, and yet my uncensored self still uses “rape” casually and incredibly inappropriately.

It is not just that the posters and Mandolin are ignoring the reality of what this woman admitted to, but they are all gleefully jumping on the “rape culture” bandwagon without ever discussing the gender of the potential victim and the potential rapist. The only person who acknowledges male victims is Schala, who gets promptly banned from the thread by Mandolin who states, “Okay, enough what about the menz for this thread.”

So on a thread where a woman professes that she wants to rape her boyfriend, discussing male victimization is talking about “the menz”?

Granted, this is not to be unexpected. The reaction on Alas to any acknowledgment of female-on-male violence is at best indifference, and when it comes to sexual violence it is generally a lack of acknowledgment beyond “it’s extremely rare” followed by, as Mandolin did, a “shut up” admonishment.

It would be unfair to say that the thread is pro male rape if for no other reason than there is a total lack of acknowledgment of male victimization. However, it is fair to say that they (everyone who has posted on the thread sans Schala) has apologized to some extent for the what the anonymous emailer’s male rape fantasies. It is disturbing, not only because of how easily and quickly the posters excuse the woman’s thoughts, but how no one actually acknowledges what the woman said. Instead, they rationalize this woman’s clearly dangerous thinking by absolving her of any direct responsibility for her thoughts. It is not her fault, but the “mental colonization of her mind.” Curiously, Mandolin has never applied this notion to any man or boy accused of rape or to males in general. She does not absolve any males if or when they have such thoughts about women.

To the contrary, not a single person on that site would hesitate to at least question the thinking of a man who sent an email stating that he fantasized about raping his girlfriend. The nicest responses would likely be warnings to the man’s girlfriend that she needed to get away him before he acted on his thoughts. The less than nice comments would call the man a rapist outright. There certainly would not be any suggestion that people be respectful of him for revealing tender and personal details (something rather ironic given how cruelly male victims of rape have been treated by feminists on Alas a blog).

Speaking as someone has been victimized in the manner the anonymous emailer apparently wishes to boyfriend and speaking as someone who knows many boys and men who have been raped by women (whether the posters on Alas acknowledge such acts as rape remains unclear), I find it terribly sad to see people engaging in that kind of excuse making. I do not mean sad as in regrettable, but sad as in utterly pathetic and disturbing on a level that I thought was attainable only by those who conduct such nuanced and rationalized discussions about their sexual fantasies involving children. In the past I have not gone so far as to actually think that feminists in general would hold such permissive views about sexual violence against boys and men, but apparently my opinion was too generous.

As I said before, I will not go so far as to say that Mandolin and her posters are pro male rape, but they apparently support male rape fantasies, and to be completely honest I am not certain where that support for women fantasizing about violating males ends.

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23 thoughts on “Feminists Supporting Male Rape Fantasies

  1. This may be down to something as simple as projection. The female emailer possibly fantasises about being raped by her boyfriend (something she would be loathe to mention on a feminist site) and projects these thoughts onto him in order to validate her own rape fantasies.

    Why she would project these thoughts may be due to penis envy or a power trip based on the belief that her boyfriend would accept ‘sex’ from her at any time in any shape or form.

  2. Davout I suspect it’s much simpler than that. Bear in mind it’s occuring within a demographic that finds it almost compulsory to mock – sometimes even attack – the victims of such acts.

    Not one of the Alas contributors grasped the nature of the correspondant’s revelation, not even the correspondant herself. They were all to busy excusing her by seeking some other causal agency even should that agency be a phantom.

    Fundamental to this is that, to them, the male victim of a female abuser is merely the punchline in a joke. The real drama always surrounds the woman.

  3. @TS…

    I’ve long since ceased regarding Alas as “feminist”.

    It’s an environment that has institutionalised values that women’s libbers saw in their midst but mostly looked upon as whacko.

    I can only think of it as an expression of ritualised misandry with all of the rigidities and strictures normally apparent in rituals. The ideas and ideologies are becoming so passe they must be locked in stone. Good thing they edit and excommunicate liberally.

    NO heathens allowed!

    Alas! is the high church of something. But it isn’t feminism.

  4. I doubt it is projection or penis envy. I would agree, based on past experiences with people who think like the emailer, that her fantasies are a power trip. I would not be surprised if in the fantasy she presumed that her boyfriend would first resist and then come to enjoy it or even enjoy the total loss of power. Some people do enjoy such things, however, the emailer’s fantasy is dangerous because she never actually acknowledges it is her fantasy. She pushes the blame for her thoughts on “rape culture” in the same way that self-professed child lovers push their thoughts onto society at large.

  5. I am not certain what the blog is at the moment. I noticed that Jeff Flecke posts there, which is odd on several levels.

    What I thought I was certain of was that no one there would go so far as to actually condone people fantasizing about raping boys and men. I thought that despite the mockery and tactic belittling of male victims and the attacking of advocates for male victims, there was some level of restraint, that there was a line that people there would not cross.

    At the very least the post explains why any mention of male victimization is a bad and undeserved thing on that blog is treated so much hostility.

  6. One would think all that ‘rape culture’ would make the female emailer cringe at the thought of raping someone.
    Amazingly, the Alas motley crew has decided the emailer is victim of Stockholm Syndrome from rape culture.

    This reminds me of the Mary Winkler case where she shot her sleeping husband and then alleged an atmosphere of ‘verbal and emotional’ abuse made ‘her ugly come out’.

    She made the obligatory gestures, deemed as overcompensating only when women are accused, pretending to be penitent by referring to herself as a ‘moron’ and ‘evil woman’. The emailer also self deprecates, knowing full well that the crowd will be sympathetic: “yet my uncensored self still uses “rape” casually and incredibly inappropriately”.
    The majority female jury, just like the Alas crowd, empathised with her.

    In both cases, the females either conceived of or performed an evil deed, used a mythic atmosphere as an excuse and then played off the court of public opinion. Both women knew EXACTLY what they were doing and wanted public sympathy and approval by proxy.

  7. One would think all that ‘rape culture’ would make the female emailer cringe at the thought of raping someone.

    Yeah. I question that I’ve pondering about rape culture is if there is any room for male victims within it. According to the post and commenters at Alas apparently not.

    Amazingly, the Alas motley crew has decided the emailer is victim of Stockholm Syndrome from rape culture.

    I think your right. The danger with what you’re describing is that it completely absolves women of responsibility. The emailer can put responsibility on the culture. The harm is that the emailer is denying her on sense of agency and portraying herself just as a victim.

    I think rape culture itself is somewhat ambiguous. The one

  8. “The one attempt to address male rape in a devoted thread devolved into a demand for male victims first pay tribute to female victims before they would even be acknowledged. ”

    I make this point respectfully, and sincerely: why even read that blog? Or others like it? The above quote is as wacky, as inane, and as childish as my insisting that Martians are living in my closet. It’s beneath you even to read it. It’s not capable of enlightening, or of offering new insights. It’s a waste of time. I’ve reached the point where I am no longer even curious enough about what they’re saying to read them. My collaborators and others might tell me that they’ve seen some hateful thing or other about our blog, but I no longer read hate blogs because, for one thing, I am not going to have them mold the discourse that goes on in my blog. It would be perfectly easy to for me to gear my blog to react to their inanity, but why? Once they dictate the discourse, they’ve won.

    The fact of the matter is that the persons who write for many of those blogs have a victim fetish. They take some twisted psychological relish in being part of what they perceive to be an underclass, and any attempt to displace that by suggesting that the “enemy” are sometimes really the victims is met with incredulity, mockery, and — of course — macho foul language. The issue my blog focuses on — similar to your issue — deals with one particular class of victim that we’re not supposed to talk about. Those victims need a voice, because they have issues peculiar to them. And I make this offer over and over again: the day some big time feminist site decides to give false rape claim victims fair attention and a voice is the day I shut my blog down.

    I am not being flippant or judgmental — I say this to you out of respect because this is a great blog: I hope you stop reading those wretched, wretched things altogether.

    Don’t let them dictate the discourse.

  9. I make this point respectfully, and sincerely: why even read that blog? Or others like it?

    I usually do not read such blogs. I used to some time ago, but since so few of them are willing to allow open discussion or criticism I find little need to visit the blogs on any consistent basis. However, I do think it is important to know what people who have a large online presence are disseminating. What Mandolin wrote is rather dangerous and potentially harmful to countless boys and men, particularly male victims of abuse. There will be dozens of blogs who will link to her post and in turn further propagate the nonsense that female sexual violence is both harmless and that female rapists are in no way responsible for their actions.

    While my pingback was not linked on Alas (as I am certain either Ampersand or Mandolin has deleted it), my blog post will appear in Google alerts about male rape, victimization and abuse. It may not stop anyone who agrees with Mandolin and Alas posters from bouncing their support for those ideas around the blogosphere, but it will let people know there are some who disagree with those views.

    It would be perfectly easy to for me to gear my blog to react to their inanity, but why? Once they dictate the discourse, they’ve won.

    I agree, which is why I am not playing by their rules. Neither Mandolin, Ampersand or any of the posters on Alas would ever hold a rational or even basic discussion with anyone who disagrees with them. As I said, they deleted the trackback just to avoid any conversation. Ampersand went so far as to email me several weeks ago demanding that I and the other bloggers at Feminist Critics not even comment on anything posted on his blog. If Mandolin wanted to actually address what the emailer wrote, she would have no problem with anyone discussing male victimization or addressing the fact that most rapists begin by fantasizing about rape in the manner that the emailer described.

    That said, as juvenile and petulant I find posts like what Mandolin wrote to be, it is more important to challenge them rather than pretend that they do not exist. Real men and boys will read Mandolin’s nonsense and instead of getting help for the violence they suffered they will conclude, presumably as Mandolin and Alas posters want, that they were not victimized at all and that their experiences of violence at the hands of female rapists are unimportant and fundamentally not the fault of the women who abused them.

    Writing a post like the one I wrote those notions. That is why I write them.

  10. And you do a wonderful job and provide an important service here. I understand why you sometimes respond to their inanity.

    For false rape claims, it would be waste of time. For false rape claims, it is not a question of pretending these hate sites don’t exist and sticking our head in the sand; rather, the problem is when I pretend I can engage the hate sites in logical, civil or informed discourse, it is literally like trying to talk to a brick wall — completely unproductive. They are content to preach to their little, marginalized choir of devotees without bothering to convince anyone that their cult makes any sense. For my part, I am constanly selling our positions to Middle America, people not embroiled in the gender wars. Now I just do what I do on our blog, and even the mainstream media has started contacting us about false rape claims. We get more emails than we can properly answer from young guys going through the false rape ordeal (or more often, we hear from their mothers). They have no trouble finding us. And, yes, it gets incredibly depressing. Our audience is getting bigger and bigger, and I am happier when I am dictating the discourse and letting the haters call us foul-mouthed names and do the literary equivalent of a disgusted eye-roll.

    I do notice that the most of the men’s rights blogosphere seems obsessed with what “the feminists” are up to, and too much of the movement is unnecessarily reactive — again, letting them establish the discourse.

    I think it’s time the feminists start worrying about what we’re up to.

    Keep up the important work you do.

  11. I agree with you about discussing false accusations. When I have tried it usually went nowhere. However, I think that your approach with your blog actually does the same thing I did when I would attempt to engage in conversations with feminists about false rape. You present the situation as it is, case by case. Even if someone were to argue that false accusations are rare, the reality of what actually occurs is there for them to see.

    As for dictating the discourse, I think that is less important than getting the information out there. That is not to say that I do not agree that the discussion should not be controlled by one side, only that what you present will go far beyond any rules set up to keep you silent.

    Thank you for the compliment and I hope that you keep up the important work you do. The amount of information you have amassed in a short period of time is impressive and I think it will go a long way in showing that false accusations are more common than people are willing to admit.

  12. > Alas! is the high church of something. But it isn’t feminism.

    What ELSE is feminism?

  13. Pingback: Justifying and Rationalizing Misandry « Toy Soldiers

  14. “Feminists Supporting Male Rape Fantasies”

    Ever hear a feminist criticise femdom pornography (which is basically based on male rape)? Nope, didn’t think so.

    Yet another of woman’s bogus intellectual outputs: “feminist anti-porn”.

    They tell us that porn is proof of Patriarchal oppression, but are always careful to stress that “good porn” can exist too. Hypocrites, as ever.

  15. On Alas, A Blog:

    “I can only think of it as an expression of ritualised misandry with all of the rigidities and strictures normally apparent in rituals.”

    Good. But you need to extend that definition to feminism and the women’s movement in general.

  16. I am not a particular fan of Alas!, but I find it rather disheartening that men’s rights activists so readily attack feminism as a whole, instead of regarding it as an ally.

    It is explicitly clear that in the original email, the woman was horrified that she had used the word “rape” in a lighthearted and allusive way, while referring to the consensual act of surprising her partner with the suggestion of sex. Only the most deluded and partisan interpretation could conclude this as a fantasy of literal rape.

    The definition of “rape culture” includes male-on-male as well as female-on-male rape (and female-on-female, for that matter). It refers to a culture in which trivialization of rape is commonplace – a notable example of which is the prevalence and general acceptance of male-on-male prison rape jokes.

    Take care in the future not to intentionally (or perhaps only ignorantly) misinterpret every use of the word “rape” referring to a male, lest you even further resemble the radical feminists you so readily hate.

  17. I am not a particular fan of Alas!, but I find it rather disheartening that men’s rights activists so readily attack feminism as a whole, instead of regarding it as an ally.

    I am not a men’s rights activist, so I can not speak for what they do. However, I can say that feminists do not support any men’s issues. In most instances feminists dismiss efforts to address various men’s issues as thinly veiled attacks on women and women’s rights. If feminists actually supported efforts to, for example, created shared parenting laws or provide services to male victims of domestic violence and rape, perhaps more MRAs would regard feminists as potential allies. However, there is also the problem that feminists view men’s rights groups as sexist and misogynists, which puts a hindrance on the alliance.

    It is explicitly clear that in the original email, the woman was horrified that she had used the word “rape” in a lighthearted and allusive way, while referring to the consensual act of surprising her partner with the suggestion of sex. Only the most deluded and partisan interpretation could conclude this as a fantasy of literal rape.

    It is also explicitly clear in the original email that the women was not horrified by her own thought process, but that she was horrified by “how horribly pervasive rape culture can be.” She took no direct responsibility for her thoughts, instead placing the responsibility on a nebulous feminist theory with little veracity. So it is not a deluded or partisan interpretation to conclude the woman’s fantasy is of literal rape. That is what she actually stated, although she tries to mitigate it as waking up her boyfriend with sexual advances and only going further if he then accepted her advances. As I said in my initial post, if the situation was reversed and a man made a similar comment no feminist would

    The definition of “rape culture” includes male-on-male as well as female-on-male rape (and female-on-female, for that matter). It refers to a culture in which trivialization of rape is commonplace – a notable example of which is the prevalence and general acceptance of male-on-male prison rape jokes.

    I am aware of the definition of “rape culture.” I am also aware that “culture” refers to the notion of “Patriarchy,” meaning that the theory actually means “a culture in which trivialization of rape is commonplace and is caused and perpetuated by men.” Feminists only started adding in male victimization once male victim advocates began to be listened to by the media and general public. The inclusion, however, is only a facade, as no feminist actually holds women in any way responsible for the creation or perpetuation “rape culture,” which is demonstrated on the Alas thread.

    Take care in the future not to intentionally (or perhaps only ignorantly) misinterpret every use of the word “rape” referring to a male, lest you even further resemble the radical feminists you so readily hate.

    One should also take care not to intentionally misrepresent criticism of feminist positions as being driven by hatred lest one wishes to further demonstrate the reasons why so few concerned with men’s issues view feminists as allies.

  18. Your logic in the last comment is flawed.

    “It is also explicitly clear in the original email that the women was not horrified by her own thought process, but that she was horrified by ‘how horribly pervasive rape culture can be.’ She took no direct responsibility for her thoughts, instead placing the responsibility on a nebulous feminist theory with little veracity.”

    This much is true. The next bit, however…

    “So it is not a deluded or partisan interpretation to conclude the woman’s fantasy is of literal rape.”

    … is a complete non-sequiteur. I agree with you that she ought to take more ownership for her thought process, rather than leaping to blame the culture. But that doesn’t tell us anything about what her thought process actually was.
    Our only evidence for that is what she wrote, which is that she used the word rape to mean “wake [him] up with sexual advances that will lead to sex if accepted,” (not a literal fantasy of rape by any stretch), and was horrified that she had used the word so trivially. Reading between the lines a bit, she probably was using it to mean ‘sex, only more so!’ i.e. because her boyfriend is so “totes hot right now,” the word sex does not convey the requisite passion, and therefore the word rape is used instead. This is indeed appalling, because it would suggest that (paraphrasing her now), rape is nothing more than surprise sex, and should be viewed as a compliment. And sure, if you like, it also could suggest that the word rape never REALLY means rape when it’s applied to a man, and that’s appalling too.

    Nevertheless. The issue is not her fantasy — there is no fantasy, or at least no fantasy is described in her email. The issue is her use of language.

    Or at least that was the issue for the Alas crowd, and for CS, and for me. If you want to assume that she was flat-out lying when she said “I did not mean rape literally,” and then again, later, “it wasn’t the same thing as a rape fantasy at all,” well, I certainly can’t stop you. But in that case your only real complaint is that other people were too quick to believe her. To say that they supported the woman’s fantasies of raping her boyfriend is simply false: as far as they were concerned, no such fantasy had been described.

  19. … is a complete non-sequiteur.

    No, it is not. The woman stated she meant to force herself sexually on her boyfriend. That she attempted to mitigate that by claiming “Now, I did not mean rape literally. What I meant was ‘wake you up with sexual advances that will lead to sex if accepted.'” changes nothing. Even her mitigation qualifies as rape or attempted rape as she intended to engage in sex acts without permission in the hopes when her unconscious boyfriend woke up he would then give consent.

    Reading between the lines a bit, she probably was using it to mean ’sex, only more so!’ i.e. because her boyfriend is so “totes hot right now,” the word sex does not convey the requisite passion, and therefore the word rape is used instead.

    One could interpret it that way, except the woman explicitly mentions “rape culture,” implying that while she may associate sexual violence against males as surprise sex she is clearly aware that what she fantasized about constitutes. The association she made was based on a lack of consent, i.e. her boyfriend had not said yes. It was not a conflation of terminology, but an application of the correct word, which then appalled her.

    If you want to assume that she was flat-out lying when she said “I did not mean rape literally,” and then again, later, “it wasn’t the same thing as a rape fantasy at all,” well, I certainly can’t stop you.

    One need not assume the woman lied. One can assume that the woman attempted to mitigate her statement, i.e. lessen the impact of what she stated by explaining it away. That is not uncommon for people to do, especially people who have thoughts like the woman did. Reverse the gender and then look at the situation. It is doubtful that one would accept “I did not mean rape literally” if a man thought “Oh I am so gonna rape you– wait, what!?” while looking at his girlfriend.

    To say that they supported the woman’s fantasies of raping her boyfriend is simply false: as far as they were concerned, no such fantasy had been described.

    It is not, as the woman was offered a venue in which to discuss her fantasy without any criticism or moral objection. That constitutes to support.

  20. Pingback: Please stop “helping” | Toy Soldiers

  21. May I just say, as a feminist, that anyone who dismisses the sexual assault of men is not a feminist. They are giving feminists a bad name, because feminism is about giving respect to people of all sexes and genders to create better lives for everyone.
    Sidenote for those prepared to argue: The reason it starts with “femin” and focuses on women is because they are currently the ones who deal with more discrimination. In an alternate universe were men couldn’t vote for ages and were shamed for dressing “provocatively,” we would have masculinists instead of feminists. It’s only fair.
    If you don’t believe that women tend to be discriminated against more than men, I don’t know what to tell you.

  22. I must add, however, that men probably have it worse when it comes to having been raped. I won’t argue about that. Sorry to have left that out.

  23. Hello, CJ. I want to respond to your comments. You wrote:

    May I just say, as a feminist, that anyone who dismisses the sexual assault of men is not a feminist. They are giving feminists a bad name, because feminism is about giving respect to people of all sexes and genders to create better lives for everyone.

    I would agree that those people give feminists a bad name, however, I disagree that they are not feminists. The notion that sexual violence is something men do to women is a very common feminist view. It is only logical that many feminists would then assume that men cannot be raped and that women cannot rape given the lack of discussion of those two issues in feminist circles.

    Sidenote for those prepared to argue: The reason it starts with “femin” and focuses on women is because they are currently the ones who deal with more discrimination.

    Then feminism cannot be about respecting all people to create better lives for everyone. If one assumes that women have it worse than anyone and therefore need specific focus, you set yourself up for ignoring the other groups. You cannot promote equality by focusing on one group.

    In an alternate universe were men couldn’t vote for ages and were shamed for dressing “provocatively,” we would have masculinists instead of feminists. It’s only fair.

    Except both of those things did happen. In the United States, the average man was not initially allowed to vote. Only land-owning men could vote. Likewise, men who dress provocatively, i.e. in any way considered socially unacceptable, are shamed for how they dress.

    If you don’t believe that women tend to be discriminated against more than men, I don’t know what to tell you.

    You could tell me I am not a feminist. I do not think that one can flatly claim that women always have it worse than men or are more discriminated against than men. What metric are you using to determine that?

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