One can generally determine the intent of an idea by its supporters’ explanation of. This is particularly true when it comes to politically loaded issues where the greater importance is maintaining political correctness rather than respecting conflicting positions. A blogger recently provided a good example of using political correctness to bolster an untenable. When questioned about the meaning of “cisgender,” the blogger responded with:
[Cisgender is] not mental and physical [gender]. Rather, it’s that the gender you were assigned at birth, and the gender you identify as, are the same.
The poster later stated that “cisgender” is essentially the norm, so there is no need for a special term in normal (i.e. general) discourse, to which the blogger replied:
Maybe it doesn’t come up in your “normal” discourse, Ron, but I find that the term is useful in my day to day discourse.
Plus, as a political matter, it’s important that the unmarked “defaults” have names. Imagine if, instead of the words “Jewish” and “Christian,” we had only “Jewish” and “normal.” Or if, instead of “heterosexual” and “homosexual,” we had only “normal” and “homosexual.” We can’t discuss things on an equal basis without an equal vocabulary.
The issue is not actually the term or the usage of the term “cisgender,” but what the term represents, i.e. its political motivation. The notion that a person is assigned a gender at birth and that biology plays absolutely no role in a person’s gender is a political belief, and those who agree with that belief seek to enforce it on everyone. The problem, as is true with all beliefs, is that they cannot fully explain it. It is something that is just accepted outright, leading to the conflict about identifying terms or transpeople defining everyone else’s identity as “cisgender.”
Several of the posters fall back on the argument that average people should just accept the term “cisgender” because it works for describing a difference. The irony of the argument is that the same people would not, by virtue of political correctness, accept that as a valid reason in a whole host of other situations. It may work well for white people like the blogger to call people born with high melanin counts who are or whose ancestors were from Africa “negroes.” However, the people he would call that, particularly those in the United States, would likely object to being called such. There is technically nothing wrong with the term as it describes (not really) what those people look like. However, would it be reasonable for a white person to respond with “Why does it bother you? I’m just describing what you look like and it’s less clumsy than saying ‘people born with high melanin counts who are or whose ancestors were from Africa’?” The examples are not limited to African Americans. There are many groups who do not want to be referred to by a host of different labels, and in a politically charged environment those labels would not be used because using such terms allows the group labeling them to control and dictate their identity.
Therein lies the issue and it is that the term “cisgender” is less about normalizing transpeople and more about othering everyone else. The overwhelming majority of the human population is not transgender. In any other instance in which one deals with the same rare rate of variance, one finds that only disproportionate group is named. There are tigers and white tigers, jaguars and melanistic jaguars, lions and white lions, etc. At no point would anyone suggest renaming the rest of the species because there is a rare variance among them. Likewise, no one implies that white tigers are not tigers by calling them white tiger. It is assumed that that they are tigers, that through some genetic rarity, have white fur.
In that sense, the term “cisgender” is simply a political ploy designed to — ironically — prevent a discussion on an equal basis by requiring one group to accept without question the transgender position. It is about forcing others to accept ideas, and it is done through challenging those people’s self-identities. The overwhelming majority of the people labeled “cisgender” do not think they were assigned their gender at birth and that their sense of their own identity matches society’s determination. The overwhelming majority of men and women consider themselves as such because they were born that way. They think they were biologically set up to be that way (which is curiously considered “transphobic”).
A term like “cisgender” implies that it is just pure happenstance, which attacks those people’s identities, intentionally or not. If the goal is discussion on an equal basis, one cannot start by calling into question another person’s identity while demanding that they not do the same in return. More importantly, of those who know what “cisgender” is supposed to mean, the majority do not want to be called such. In terms of politics, it is bad form to call a group something they do not want to be called and even worse form to justify it with, “It works for us.” Again, if the goal is discussion on an equal basis, then one must be willing to extend the same respect one wishes to receive, which includes respecting other people’s right to define themselves regardless of how convenient it is for one to do it for them.
Do we need a special, clinical term to describe a healthy person?
Probably. That is the general problem with playing politics like this. It quickly reaches a point of absurdity. It actually makes discussion more cumbersome because people constantly have to find to politically correct term to use and they have to be sure there are not multiple terms because they then run the risk of offending someone even when they are trying not to.
aych: You mean a term like, let me see, “healthy”?
I’m not fully convinced by your article, TS. I mean, no one would bother being in the group of “ten-fingered people” when the issues people with fewer fingers face are discussed. On the other hand, I do understand that the term “cis-gender” carries a lot of theoretical baggage which many people see as quite a bit contrary to views they hold dear. (What is biological gender? Is it the genes, is it the hormones, is it the brain structure (some say it is, others (many feminists among them) would deny that there are “men brains” and “women brains”), is it the genitals? And if “gender” is a social construct, how can someone who has grown up as a member of the male gender then find out that he “really” is of female gender? There seem to be many holes in the theory …)
But, as I said, I don’t think it is “wrong” to have a word for non-trans*-people. I think it could be a bit silly to make it part of someone’s identity, like I would find it silly of someone to identify as “ten-fingered”.
Next question: Should we have a word for people who are not colour-blind?
It is not so much that transpeople created a word for non-transpeople. It is the expectancy that non-transpeople use their new word, not just in conversation with transpeople, but all the time, the political baggage attached to the new word, and immediate accusation of “transphobia” when someone objects to using it.
Hey, TS– did you know I’m still banned at feministcritics?
The reason why I was banned was because of complaints by the feminist posters that I was stirring them up. But for anyone who has kept their eyes open, the feminists over there are complaining even louder now than they ever have before and I can’t be blamed for their crybaby ire this time around.
Kind of makes ya think, huh?
Almost as if my banning was complete BS.
Almost as if thin-skinned crybaby feminists are implacable.
No, aych, the reason you were placed on permanent moderation at FC is because your comments have been almost invariably obnoxious, snarky, sarcastic, and unrelievedly negative, and you have a strong tendency to post derailing comments and ab hominem sneers. The comments you’ve posted since being placed on moderation haven’t shown much improvement, plus you’ve demonstrated a clear indifference or hostility to the blog rules (i.e. repeatedly trying to post to the NoH threads from which you have been barred, instead of confining yourself to the RP threads, using a different handle to get around the moderation filter, etc.) … which is why your comments are often not being approved.
TS
You might want to read this
http://dglenn.dreamwidth.org/1588929.html
“A term like “cisgender” implies that it is just pure happenstance, which attacks those people’s identities, intentionally or not.”
It implies no such thing.
Let me give you the trans community dictionary:
Cissexual: Person who is not transsexual – ie regardless of gender expression, they do not transition, do not get contra-sexed hormones and do not have surgery.
Cisgender: Person who is not transgender. It varies depending on the scope of its opposite term. For example, does transgender include masculine women and feminine men? But typically cisgender refers to people who are more or less falling in line with social expectations about their sex.
and note this: Irregardless of the cause of such. It is simply an observed fact. You’re conventionally masculine as per your culture, and male? You’re cisgender. Same for a conventionally feminine female person. This does not mean fitting the mold to a T.
The criteria is vague but observable:
-Do you get people misgendering you (thinking you’re a woman when you’re a man, or vice-versa)?
-Do you have people ask you if you are a man or a woman often?
-Do you have people find you suspect in bathrooms, thinking you may not be in the right one, or outright asking you to leave?
Those affect transgender people in general, not transsexual people specifically.
If those don’t affect you and you still don’t believe cisgender correctly names your group, you may be in a grey area harder to judge, or just against the term like some radical feminists are (and yes, those are the majority who are against it, just read mAndrea’s blog).
Cisgender and cissexual are somewhat blind to people who have intersex conditions, in those cases it’s pretty hard to judge sometimes. Those would be the grey area. They’ve probably been victims of transphobia, at least for a significant portion of them (having to deal with doctors knowing about it, treating you like a curiosity, and using you like a guinea pig – for an example of a few of the transphobic acts).
Physically speaking, I would be transsexual (ie non-cissexual), not transgender (I reasonably am seen as female by all), but am also intersex, which complicates things. If you’re neither competely male nor completely female, how can you transition to an “other”. If you’re not on the sidewalk, how can you know which sidewalk you came from, which side? Gonads, chromosomes, hormone levels? All imperfect measures. This is why intersex is the wrench in the gears as far as cis-terminology.
However, it is still incredibly useful when speaking about trans vs non-trans people. Which is why I use it myself.
Schala,
I am aware of how the terms are defined within the transgender community, in the same why I am aware how feminist terms are defined (or often not defined) in the feminist community. The issue is not what occurs within the community, but what occurs when that community forces its positions, rhetoric and terminology on others.
The definitions you offered do not match the apparently accepted definitions. When one looks at those, it becomes clear that presumption is that the overwhelming majority of people just happen to be born in a particular body and their perception of their identity just happens to coincide with what society dictates is the behavior and roles associated with that particular sex. It technically cannot mean anything else because that would substantively challenge the framework of transsexual/transgender meaning not fitting into social norms and expectations on sex. The only other viable conclusion one could reach is that non-trans people would be open to transitioning if not for social restrictions, which implies that the non-trans identity is something that is essentially a choice hampered by fear or social compliance.
I do not care if within feminist circles feminists define males as ‘oppressors’. I do care, however, if they demand that I use that term to describe myself because their position is that woman = oppressed. Whether they personally believe it is true is immaterial. More so, since I am telling them I find the label offensive, whether they think it is applicable is wholly irrelevant. The fact that I find it offensive means the term should not be used.
The same applies to the trangender rhetoric. Whether it is intended not to be an insult does not matter. It is considered offensive and inapplicable, ergo it should not be used. Of course, in terms of discussion within a in-group, a person could find numerous offensive terms very useful, especially if the usage of such terms bolsters a person’s sense of validation.
This goes back to my point about the labeling being primarily about othering the majority of people. The conclusion you reach is that those who do not agree with the label must be in sort of limbo, not that perhaps the label or the idea itself is poorly thought out or wholly inapplicable. I understand the feelings that motivate this, however, that does not change that the logic being applied is severely flawed (to such at an extent, one could argue, that if it were applied to any other criteria — race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, species, etc. — it would never be taken remotely seriously despite many of those things actually being little more than subjective cultural/social differentiations).
“Therein lies the issue and it is that the term “cisgender” is less about normalizing transpeople and more about othering everyone else.”
Just like my being white, and being named white by people of color is about othering me? The default in western culture is white, the default is named.
You might believe being trans is a choice someone makes later in life. No such thing. People might be masochists sometimes, but such a significant portion of the population who suddenly decides to be hated by the rest of the population for personal gratification no less, makes little sense.
I was born trans. I simply transitioned in adulthood when I figured it was even possible. Had I lived in a time where it was physically impossible or extremely arduous, I would be part of the reasonless suicides, and born again in a more clement time, hopefully.
I do not think the term ‘white’ was coined by other people. I believe the term was created by various European groups as a method of separating themselves from ‘darker’ races.
I do not doubt that you believe you were born trans. That is not something I am particularly concerned with in the same way that I am not concerned with whether a person believes there is a God, gods, aliens or parallel dimensions. One may believe whatever one wants. It is when a person tries to force that belief on others that it becomes a problem, which I think is the case with the term ‘cisgender’. It is, after all, opinion and theory, not fact. So it should be fair for those who do not agree with the theory to reject it and object to be forced to abide by it.
It is fact like my blue eyes, my three-colored (naturally) wavy hair and my left-handedness to write as well as ambidextry otherwise.
I am psychologically healthy, despite being emotionally scarred in childhood and teen years. You know its been tried, everything has been tried to make someone deny they were transsexual. I mean it.
From easy coercion therapy in childhood and adulthood, using parents, religion, guilt and fears. To electro-shock “therapy”, lobotomy, reverse-hormones (treating a trans woman with heavy doses of testosterone) and just being institutionalized and raped in said institutions.
Like the ex-gay movement and teen boot camps to make girls less butch and boys less “wimpy”. It is going to fail. It has failed. The only thing it does is damage the psyches of its victims and make them repressed and depressed. They’ve tried it for decades, without success. Kenneth J Zucker from Ontario is still trying (and is getting bad press for it).
One of the (male) founders of the ex-gay movement married another and got away from the organization. Shows how effective it is if the founders themselves can’t “become straight by therapy”.
So, like I said, psychologically healthy. I’m not schizophrenic, I don’t see flying elephants, or people. I simply know, within myself, that I am female. I present to the world as such, take hormones to aid in this, and will undertake costly, irreversible surgery, all with informed consent, to finally resolve this inner conflict.
This is not fabulation, theory or opinion, it is experience and fact of life. It exists, it’s been there since the dawn of humanity, deal with it. Nothing to do with gender expression by the way. It’s the single most piece of misinformation about transsexual people – it has nothing to do with culture, social or gender roles, as much as shrinks like to tell you.
“The conclusion you reach is that those who do not agree with the label must be in sort of limbo, not that perhaps the label or the idea itself is poorly thought out or wholly inapplicable.”
Seriously, go read mAndrea, most feminists (and especially the trans variety) do not dare. It hurts my brain to go read there, I did once. mAndrea is condemned by most mainstream feminists I know, was banned from Alas (on a thread I participated in), is condemned by belledame and many others online, not even counting trans feminists (whom mAndrea tries to attack sometimes, on their own blogs).
You know what mAndrea’s argument for not liking the word or meaning of such was? That it meant she was no longer a woman. As if my being white denied by sex. You have a crapload of titles and labels slapped onto you, by yourself, friends, family, and perfect strangers (like the government). I don’t have to agree with all of them, but if they fit I do. I’m not a MRA, but I am white-skinned and straight. I won’t deny I’m white, or straight, just because it’s inconvenient to me.
“The definitions you offered do not match the apparently accepted definitions. ”
I don’t rely on dictionary or wikipedia for more than tidbits of information. It is to be taken with a grain of salt. I’m a woman, wether Websters agrees with me or not, and even if I never produced eggs in my life. And this isn’t a belief, it’s a fact. The definition I provided is the one Julia Serano uses – one of the most known trans feminists today. She coined the term trans-misogyny to name what happens to trans women at the intersectionality of being trans and being a woman (and in the case of trans women, your expression is truly considered fake and/or artificial, or not genuine, as is rarely the case for the average woman).
“When one looks at those, it becomes clear that presumption is that the overwhelming majority of people just happen to be born in a particular body and their perception of their identity just happens to coincide with what society dictates is the behavior and roles associated with that particular sex. It technically cannot mean anything else because that would substantively challenge the framework of transsexual/transgender meaning not fitting into social norms and expectations on sex. The only other viable conclusion one could reach is that non-trans people would be open to transitioning if not for social restrictions, which implies that the non-trans identity is something that is essentially a choice hampered by fear or social compliance.
”
I disagree. This is the conclusion of the Kate Bornsteins and other gender f**kers of this world, not of the majority of the transsexual community.
It does mean something else, referring to the upper part of your paragraph:
Someone feels it is more or less right for them, in a way that the other sex would not feel right for them. Alternatively, they could be comfortable with either sex’s equipment, but the cost to make the change (including fertility, let’s not forget) is too high a price for them. Most people never ask themselves more than in passing if their sex is right for them, if they wouldn’t rather be the other. It’s like a what if scenario, but never pushed further. If they felt something was wrong, they would push it further, if they didn’t, they’d leave it at that and assume it was just normal or natural.
It has little to do with cultural norms. What cultural norms will do is dictate the degree of repression you will have to endure as an individual to be acceptable. For example, in the 50s, women in pants was not seen as acceptable. Thus women wishing to wear pants had to suffer scorn by doing it anyway, or repress their pants-wearing desires. Some probably didn’t mind at all too. It varies per individual how the cultural norm suits them.
People would not transition not only for fear of consequences socially and financially. But because they only want to “try it out for a little while” and switch back whenever, instantly, without pain, at no cost. I’m sure then you’d get a lot of adherents to your instant sex-change drink, if you could change back. Otherwise, most people won’t do it. They don’t want to change permanently, they only want a “glimpse of the other side”.
How is the term, or its meaning, offensive? I read the post and did not catch how it could be contrued as offensive, the mAndrea argument being pretty insignificant and easily shot down.
It shows cis and trans as being on the same footing, how could it be insulting?
Technically, ‘white’ and ’straight’ are just slang for Caucasian and heterosexual. The reason why people are less likely to object to being called those terms might lie in the terms describing something those people already identify as.
However, you enter a very dangerous realm when you argue that if a term fits then a person must accept it. The word nigger is a morphed version of negro, meaning black. Technically, one could argue the word fits in context to the complexion of some people whose skin color is a very dark, almost blue-ish tone. Should black people accept the term because it technically fits? Should I accept the term ‘potential rapist’ because technically most reported rapists are male?
That is an appeal to authority, which does not bolster your argument. I could find a number of people who agree with my position, but that would not make my position correct, nor would it make it fact. That is, unfortunately, the issue at play. That you consider yourself to be female is fact. The criteria you use to determine that you are female is something you are aware is not accepted as fact; rather it is considered theory, i.e. opinion. A theory only becomes fact when one has evidence to demonstrate it, which at this point one cannot do because the deciding factor lies in the human mind, which we have yet to even remotely come to understand.
Your argument implies that I was not born male, but that I am male only because I have never bothered to question whether I would like to be female. In other words, I am choosing my identity. Does that not undermine the position that a trans person is born that way, but is unfortunately in the wrong body, not that the person is consciously or subconsciously choosing change sex?
As I noted in my previous remark, the flaw in this theory reveals itself when applied to any other situation. For example, perhaps a white person has never asked himself more than in passing if his race is right for him, if he would not rather be another race. Could that person not make such an inquiry and realize that he actually identifies as a South Pacific Islander?
That is an assumption one cannot make as there is nothing on which to base such an assumption. And again, your argument suggests that non-trans people were not born the way they were, but simply choosing not to try being the opposite sex or something in between.
As I stated before, the term is offensive because it implies that the overwhelming majority of the human population are who they are through pure happenstance, which attacks those people’s identities. They do not think that they were assigned a gender at birth. They believe they were born they way they were meant to be. It seems extremely contradictory to force them to accept something that they disagree with while stating transpeople should not be forced to accept something they disagree with.
“However, you enter a very dangerous realm when you argue that if a term fits then a person must accept it. The word nigger is a morphed version of negro, meaning black. Technically, one could argue the word fits in context to the complexion of some people whose skin color is a very dark, almost blue-ish tone. Should black people accept the term because it technically fits? Should I accept the term ‘potential rapist’ because technically most reported rapists are male?”
The word Nigredo is used in Xenosaga to denote a reference to the color black (its also someone’s name in the game, and no, he’s not black – his hair is). Another, a redhead, is named Rubedo, and yet another, with white hair, is named Albedo.
So the day I’m called albedo in reference to my skin color, maybe nigger as a term will have some actual meaning. Its like comparing “heterosexual” and “faggot” as opposed to homosexual, or gay, which are a lot more value neutral. So I would say black person would be the equivalent to white person. Like cissexual person is equivalent to transsexual person.
“Your argument implies that I was not born male, but that I am male only because I have never bothered to question whether I would like to be female. In other words, I am choosing my identity. Does that not undermine the position that a trans person is born that way, but is unfortunately in the wrong body, not that the person is consciously or subconsciously choosing change sex?”
No it doesn’t, you seem to think a bit too much about the issue. It’s simple. If you have a yellow car, and like the color yellow, you won’t question the color or prefer another color out of the blue. Color preference may or may not be innate, just saying, you don’t pick how you feel about your sex.
You pick how you deal about it, that’s about what power you have over it.
Much the same way as having your car wrecked by another driver. You decide if you attempt to repair it, bring it to the junkyard, sell it. You can’t do a thing about the collision, you can only decide what to do about it after. If you didn’t have the collision though, and liked your car, why would you want to get rid of it, why even think of it? Most cissexual people never think of transitioning, they never have felt alien in their own body to the point of wanting to get rid of it at all costs.
So you don’t choose to be male as much as you don’t object in a strong enough way to being male for it to matter or come to your attention. And to object in such a way is not a passing fancy like deciding to eat all the cookies in the house. For it to even bring your concern that it is THIS issue, and none other (because denial is incredibly strong, especially in your self, unless you’re like 3 years old), it has to affect you, a lot, enough for it to make you decide life isn’t worth living without transition.
Transitioning certainly isn’t a walk in the park, and would everybody be friendly and all to trans people, it still wouldn’t be easy at all. Depending on your status, situation, employment, friends, and location, you might lose everything, including your life, and get very little of it back if any (life is harder afterwards socially, financially, for many). What you gain is priceless, peace of mind. If you already have peace of mind, don’t fix what isn’t broken, just get on with life.
“A theory only becomes fact when one has evidence to demonstrate it, which at this point one cannot do because the deciding factor lies in the human mind, which we have yet to even remotely come to understand.”
There is no evidence for a distinct cause, though evidence still points to genetic and/or in-utero factors and that socializing has a tiny effect over wether someone is trans or not. Socializing may have an effect on wether the person in question transitions (or even can do it at all), parents, upbringing, religion, geographic location, they’ll all affect that – but not wether you are or not trans.
People have tried to raise a child reversed gender, didn’t work. People have tried to be as neutral as possible, didn’t work. People have tried to be as strictly gendered as humanly possible, didn’t work. It didn’t change a thing. If the kid was trans, that was unchangeable by the time the kid could open their eyes. It’s been proven, times and times over, by countless failures to change it, make someone not-trans. That is your proof. NARTH makes my point, ironically.
Kids, well wether they are trans or not, you can’t necessarily tell. It may or may not have a thing at all to do with gender roles (meaning a little boy who likes pink might not be trans at all, and one who doesn’t might be – it means nothing). But wether they are or not, is set before birth. Wether they like pink or not is probably a LOT more cultural than wether they feel at ease with a penis or not.
If your child tries to cut it off, chances are that’s not a sign of ease with it.
“As I noted in my previous remark, the flaw in this theory reveals itself when applied to any other situation. For example, perhaps a white person has never asked himself more than in passing if his race is right for him, if he would not rather be another race. Could that person not make such an inquiry and realize that he actually identifies as a South Pacific Islander?”
The race analogy has been tried before, its trans 201 to debunk this. You do not “feel” your amount of melatonin in your cells. You do feel what’s between your legs, and on your chest when older. Seeing is not feeling. It’s inside knowledge, not just a nerve reactive impulse that triggers the unease.
“That is an assumption one cannot make as there is nothing on which to base such an assumption. And again, your argument suggests that non-trans people were not born the way they were, but simply choosing not to try being the opposite sex or something in between.”
Are you not choosing not building a rocket and not going to the Moon to establish a base? Why not? It’s the same question to me. If there is no problem, it won’t be brought to your attention. If everything is green light, everything runs fine, 100% healthy, do you go to the doctor? I certainly don’t. Why would you question your assignment if it feels right for you?You don’t need to question it.
Cissexual people are indeed born the way they are, in alignment with the internal knowledge of self, physically-speaking.
“They do not think that they were assigned a gender at birth.”
Rare cases happen when the doctor do not know which sex to assign. Maybe a birth at home, hidden from the government (which implies homeschooling and paper-forging), could have no assignment as well. Otherwise the doctor says “It’s a boy”, they measure you, weight you, put Male on your birth certificate. Et voila, this is a sex assignment.
So unless they live in a very backwater place, where no one places importance on infant sex (I wish such a place existed), they’ve all been assigned a sex. You, me, the next door neighbor, all of the US, UK, Canada as well.
“They believe they were born they way they were meant to be. ”
Meant to be by whom or what? This is a spiritual argument.
“it implies that the overwhelming majority of the human population are who they are through pure happenstance”
Biologically speaking they are who they are, the sex and all, by pure luck, yes. Flip a coin, there you go. Unless someone can show me proof that souls pick their next body, knowing what they’re getting into, at least sex-wise. Otherwise, the meant to be thing makes little sense. We might all have a purpose, but who says you need to be a certain sex for that purpose?
“It seems extremely contradictory to force them to accept something that they disagree with while stating transpeople should not be forced to accept something they disagree with.”
My body is not something “I disagree with”. I disagree with many radical feminists. I won’t practice radical surgery on them. I disagree with the initial assignment given to me by the doctor, then the government then my parents, because it was incorrect, simply. It will be corrected in time, all the paperwork arranged, and no more problem. Just takes a ton of money and a couple years.
You can disagree with the concept that trans people are what they say they are: with a deep self-knowledge that the body does not fit them, that they ought to have the other sexed body instead. Dispute millions of years of history if you want.
The “but well, they were gay” argument doesn’t float the boat as soon as trans lesbians enter the picture. And statistically, they supposedly are overrepresented (as compared to the cissexual lesbian population).
I’m a straight girl, but I’m just one of millions.
In conclusion. You’re not cissexual because you made a conscious decision about it. You’re cissexual because you’re not transsexual. Never had the incredibly strong urge to get rid of your penis. Nothing wrong with that. You’re like 49.9% of the population (well okay might be off, I’m basing it as 99.8% of 50%).
I gave plenty of examples of comparisons and metaphors. I hope my points does come across. I’m afraid of giving more for length.
Schala,
A word that was once an insult can later become acceptable and vice versa. That does not mean, however, that one is allowed to force a term onto a group of people simply because it works for you. This is particularly true when the term actually redefines a group’s identity in the way that “cisgender/cissexual” does. It is not just a description of a state of being, but at an attempt at defining how a person comes to view his identity. You demonstrate this point when you agree that people who tried raising children with reversed genders or neutral genders have generally failed miserably. That alone implies that socialization plays at best a small role in a person’s gender identity, so the position that I was “assigned” my gender at birth falls flat.
One cannot debunk an argument just by stating that it is wrong, nor can one simply appeal to authority as proof. Race is a purely human construct. Any alien visiting our planet would perceive our skin tone and facial differences in the same way we perceive these differences in other animals of the same species. So to argue that a person cannot transition between an arbitrarily designated differentiation makes no sense. It also does not make sense that race is an inapplicable analogy based on the inability to feel melanin because that is not the only factor in racial differences. A person can feel that he has a small nose, large lips, curly hair, his height, weight, facial structure, etc. And since it is a matter of “inside knowledge,” by implication the absence of something would not prevent the “feeling” of that thing. In theory, a person could “feel” white even though he is Asian.
As I stated before, the flaw in one’s logic can be shown by applying it to another situation. I would imagine that you perceive yourself as human. Yet, at your birth, someone looked at you and said “This is a human.” They designated you “human.” Following your logic, if no one else were around or if people made no distinction between themselves and other primates, this would mean you would not be “human.”
One could argue that the terms boy and girl are arbitrary to the extent that they are a function of language. However, the state that they describe is not arbitrary. Nature may randomly select for one to be male or female, but a person is still born wither either a penis or a vagina (or XX or XY chromosomes) unless there is a genetic mishap. That we call one group boys and the other girls does not alter that.
There is no argument with millions of years of history. The historical record for fauna demonstrates that at no point has a species randomly changed sex that was not biologically capable of doing so as a result of the evolutionary potential of their genes. There is no scientific evidence supporting the position that the binary genders nature created are arbitrarily or incorrectly assigned at birth across the board, nor is there any particular evidence that this is true for the human species.
This does not mean that transpeople do not feel the way that they feel. That is obviously not true. It does mean, however, that there is nothing supporting the claim that every human feels that way or would but for their identity coinciding with social norms.
“In theory, a person could “feel” white even though he is Asian.”
In practice, only Michael Jackson managed to go from black to white. And as far as we know, it was by accident more than willfully.
Never heard of trans-racial people. Bi-racial sure, trans no. You’d think there’d be more of them than trans people if it was even possible.
Trans people represent 1/500 roughly, of any given population. Those numbers count people who’ve identified themselves as such only (ergo, not people who’ve done nothing at all about it). It’s the same numbers in Thailand than in the US, which tells you it has more to do with luck, pure chance, than any choice. It’s almost encouraged in Thailand, heavily repressed in the US, to transition. Yet same numbers. Weird no?
“As I stated before, the flaw in one’s logic can be shown by applying it to another situation. I would imagine that you perceive yourself as human. Yet, at your birth, someone looked at you and said “This is a human.” They designated you “human.” Following your logic, if no one else were around or if people made no distinction between themselves and other primates, this would mean you would not be “human.””
No, you would feel human regardless of assignment. Which is why I feel female regardless of being assigned male. And why you feel male regardless of being assigned male. But an assignment does occur, and it is enforced heavily. Not just doctors, the government, schools, employment, public places, changing rooms, bathrooms. Europe may be more enlightened considering co-ed stuff, but worldwide, we’ve got a long way until sex-segregation, by what dangles between your leg or not, matters little to none (regardless of how the individual feels about it).
In Middle-East countries, same-sex bonding is encouraged. Opposite-sex friendships are not seen, except within the same family, possibly. It’s punishable by law for a woman to be alone with a man that isn’t her husband or family relative, let’s say that doesn’t help. In Japan, the same occurs, just less severe, and not enforced by law. In the US and Canada, it occurs somewhat, around teen years, but it doesn’t prevent girls having male friends and vice-versa. Even large groups of opposite sex friends who are solely platonic, and whom one hangs-out with all the time.
I’d say there is a tendency to self-segregate within one’s group, but not all the time, and not everywhere. There is also a tendency to seek other groups outside your own. Some laws make this harder, the tendency seems equally as strong as the in-group one.
You’ve no doubt heard of intra-group competition. Sometimes you’re tired of competing all the time, going with outside groups lets you take a break from that, if anything. It’s probably a big reason why we travel at all, besides commercial reasons.
“There is no scientific evidence supporting the position that the binary genders nature created are arbitrarily or incorrectly assigned at birth across the board, nor is there any particular evidence that this is true for the human species.”
That’s true. There is no scientific evidence. I only have theories too, unproveable ones, about it. There is also no evidence for the positive claim that they are naturally correctly assigned. Much like the argument that being gay or lesbian is a mistake of evolution. It isn’t, the gene or whatever causes someone to be gay has been there for all time, it’s not been bred out, it’s not a mistake. We don’t know why, or exactly how, but it happens. We only know after the fact. Maybe in a thousand years, if our society is still alive, we’ll know about the cause, we’ll know the reason, evolutive or otherwise, for the existence of gay, lesbian, bisexual people and trans people. Until then, we only know they exist and have for all time.
Animals cannot transition because they cannot, save by accident or human interference, have access to the technology to transition. Hormones are easily acquirable in the wild, but would a lion know that a pregnant mare’s piss is highly estrogenic? I contend that animals who feel that way are perceived as gay, or are not known at all. Much like humans, it does not rely necessarily on roles or choice of mates (some races are almost entirely bisexual, I’d doubt they’re all trans or all gay by our human standards). If animals could talk intelligibly for us to understand, maybe we could know. Until then, we are supposing many things about them.
“This does not mean that transpeople do not feel the way that they feel. That is obviously not true. It does mean, however, that there is nothing supporting the claim that every human feels that way or would but for their identity coinciding with social norms.”
I did mention it had nothing at all to do with gender roles and culture right? I didn’t know I was a girl cause I liked dresses, or pink. I didn’t know I was a girl because I wanted to wear a bride’s dress at a marriage (I’ve only seen them in movies anyways, never in person).
I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, beyond the stereotypes, beyond the cultural norms. Many trans are outright butch, you know, car mechanics, oily all day, can fix any car in record time. Not necessarily a cultural stereotype of feminity is it? And yet such a person can be trans (and there’s plenty of examples of those). Think they figured their transness through stereotypes? I don’t think so.
It’s the easy explanation, it’s the easy way out of really understanding the phenomenon. It’s the way shrinks take. It’s the way the DSM-IV-TR portrays it, and it’s the way the DSM-III portrayed it. Gender roles, stereotypes etc. With only a passing mention of disliking genitals or wanting that of the other sex.
Let me tell you, those shrinks are wrong. The DSM is very wrong (and not just on GID, let me tell you, just go read about paraphilias or dissociation – they have a lot to learn).
You like pink and wanna be a housewife, oh my god no, you must be a woman. Well, no. Maybe shrinks understood it that way because of their limited understanding (a very tiny portion of them are trans, 1/500 shrinks wouldn’t have much weight, if the proportions were the same as trans within the population).
They lack hindsight because they don’t have the experience. They try to explain it via a limited worldview. Much like someone trying to explain black holes while still believing the Earth is the center of the universe, that Earth is flat and that the Sun revolves around it.
Coming back to this:
“the claim that every human feels that way or would but for their identity coinciding with social norms.”
Their identity coincides with their body map. Ironically a term invented by the late John Money (anti-trans guy, who directed a trans program mostly to treat them as freaks of nature, no less). Money believed it was social but set at about 2 years old. He was off by a couple million kilometers.
The body map is a representation of your body within your brain. It coincides with the phantom limb syndrome theories, that an amputee will still feel their lost limb even though its not there, even feel pain, like hurting your non-existent finger, or itching on your non-existent toe.
Your body map is somewhere in the brain, maybe the scientific community knows where, I don’t and it doesn’t matter where it is. It’s not plastic. It cannot be changed.
You feel if there is an important mismatch (like having a scrotum instead of vaginal lips, a penis instead of a clitoris). Your body map will not feel racial color. As long as your lips, nose, ears etc feel like they work like they should (you breath, you hear, you see, you can chew, taste, etc) then it doesn’t concern you. Your brain is busy enough, it won’t show “green lights” if there’s no problem, there’d be billions, way too much for any human being to manage, you’d be overwhelmed and die.
I feel I have breasts on my body map, and now I have A cup breasts. If I want bigger ones, it’s vanity (ie influenced by culture). If I want breasts at all, it isn’t vanity. I do have some so its not a concern anymore.
Unless you feel on your body map, that you have a penis, it will feel alien. It will feel like somebody put a very realistic strap-on surgically added to your body, permanently, like a very bad prank played on you by just everybody. You know I felt I HAD to have been adopted, cause someone altered my body and strapped a penis to it, maybe aliens. I was sure of it – at 8 years old. I can’t count the times I tried to move my pelvic structures to see the real ones under, hidden. Think this would occur to the average guy or girl?
You think this has anything, at all, to do with culture? By the time I was 8 years old, I had not seen what a vagina looked like. I thought a penis looked like what I had (meaning everyone had the same exact length, weight, looks). I had not seen another either, not that I could remember. I knew what I had was wrong, but not exactly what would be right either. Now I know, with information and introspection (ie I’m not genderqueer, I identify clearly as female, not sometimes as male sometimes as female).
A cissexual person is a person who’s body map image, in their brain, coincides with their anatomy.
A transsexual person is a person who’s body map image, in their brain, is a mismatch with their anatomy (it is not necessarily a match with the other sex either, but chances are it is).
Cisgender is more tricky to defend. I don’t personally like the term. I prefer speaking in clearly-defined absolutes (and cissexual/transsexual fits the bill better).
Cisgender refers to a non-transgender person. But transgender has been so widely defined more or less everyone could be considered transgender. Transgender relies on culture and gender roles to be defined, another point I don’t like about it. Transsexual does not.
A cross-dresser who feels right in their anatomy, but repressed in their choice of dress, is transgender. Most don’t “get off” sexually on it, as much as the DSM likes to think so. Someone who feels gender roles should be thrown in the waste basket and goes around in a dress with a full beard, well they’re no doubt considered transgender as well.
Like I said, I won’t defend transgender and cisgender. I will defend the rights of the people who fall in the category to have equal rights in employment, housing, healthcare etc (as that is basic decency), but not the term itself.
I will however defend transsexual and cissexual. I feel it correctly names the two categories. Those who feel their body matches them, and those who don’t. Without saying one category is more normal than the other, which is what non-transsexual and/or “normal” will do.
One would think that, which (unfortunately) begs the question of why transitioning, if it is a natural, biological phenomena, is limited only to sex and no other physical differences. That is not a judgment, only a practical, logical question that no one has apparently asked.
The trans population rate is not particularly weird as it represents about 0.2% of the general population. What is perhaps more surprising is that in a culture that okays and encourages such transitions that more do not happen.
Actually, it would be presented as a recessive gene that might need a certain set of conditions and circumstances to activate or as the result of a biological or genetic fluke. It could very much be that our genetic coding tells us to like the opposite sex, but there may be a mistake in the hormonal distribution in the early stages of development or something that results from the mother’s body or any number of things. We are not sure, so it is unwise to claim that the existence of certain phenomena cannot result from an accident of nature.
That may be the case, but there is one obvious difference: those people had those parts and they were later removed. Trans people do not have the opposite parts and they were not removed. In order this example to be applicable, one would have to demonstrate that people feel the presence of limbs or other appendages that are not part of their body and never were.
Again, I think this is really what the terms are about. The problem is that the word normal basically means the thing that occurs most often. While there is political baggage attached to the word, the fact remains that non-transpeople are the norm. They occur at a far higher rate than transpeople do. There is no valid, logical reason to deny this, which is what the term “cissexual” does. For example, I require glasses and contacts to see properly. Most humans do not need glasses or contacts unless/until they reach old age. Technically, they are the norm. Yet, we do not assign a name to those who are not visually impaired despite that those with visual impairments represent a far larger percentage of the population than transpeople do.
Race is just as socially constructed as gender (and sex) are. Which is to say, a lot, but not completely. There are real physical biological differences, and in most cases, the difference is obvious. To say that it’s arbitrary is ridiculous. In general….
But in some cases, yes, the assignment is arbitrary, and in others, just plain incorrect.
When laws against miscegenation were in force in the US, some people had to be 1/32 African-American to be Black; others 1/64; others “one single drop of blood” was enough. It depended on the state. A person could be white – and prohibited from marrying a black – in one state, yet black – and prohibited from marrying a white – in another.
This reached the height of insanity – and inhumanity – in Apartheid South Africa, where all sorts of tests were devised to see if someone was white, black, or coloured.
“These tests included measurements of the nose, nostrils, and cheekbones, and an expert analysis of hair texture. The latter often included the ‘pencil test.’ It was thought that a white person’s hair is not so curly to hold a pencil, whereas a coloured person’s hair could. There were gradations of skin color to be measured in various places of the body including the fingernails and the eyelids; earlobes were squeezed to determine their degree of softness. (It was thought that Black person’s earlobes were softer than others.) Individuals challenging their racial classification before the board would also be asked what they had for breakfast (it was thought only blacks would eat mealie or cornmeal porridge), how they slept on a bed, and what sport they enjoyed (blacks were thought to favor soccer while coloured favored rugby).”
Some Intersexed people go through something similar, to assign what gender they “really” are.
My Birth Certificate says “boy”, because it was decided that that’s what I most looked like at birth. I was assigned that gender. I knew by age 10 that it was wrong, and later, when I had a partial female puberty, was re-diagnosed from “intersexed male” to “intersexed female”.
They had to do physical examinations, ultrasounds, and MRIs, and gene tests, and endocrine assays etc though to find out – my own views on the subject were irrelevant.
Trans people have similar problems with arbitrary assignment when it comes to the law. It depends where thety are:
A lawyer for the transgendered plaintiff in the Littleton case noted the absurdity of the country’s gender laws as they pertain to marriage: “Taking this situation to its logical conclusion, Mrs. Littleton, while in San Antonio, Tex., is a male and has a void marriage; as she travels to Houston, Tex., and enters federal property, she is female and a widow; upon traveling to Kentucky she is female and a widow; but, upon entering Ohio, she is once again male and prohibited from marriage; entering Connecticut, she is again female and may marry; if her travel takes her north to Vermont, she is male and may marry a female; if instead she travels south to New Jersey, she may marry a male.”
Cisgendered is the opposite of transgendered. Cissexual the opposite of transsexual. trans-1,2-dichlorocyclohexane is the opposite of cis-1,2-dichlorocyclohexane. One has radicals on the same side, the other on the opposite side. That’s it.
Cisgendered is as insulting as white, gentile, american would be in the USA, or black, jewish, israeli in Kiryat Gat. (a town is Israel where the majority of the inhabitants are descendants of Jewish Ethiopian immigrants).
Being intersexed is a situation of a genetic mutation that causes a person to literally have aspects of both sexes. It certainly occurs, but not with enough frequency to consider it a normal state of human biology. Our understanding of primate biology suggests that primates are a binary-sex species. As I stated before, I am not aware of any empirical evidence that suggests otherwise, so it is difficult to believe that this phenomena of being intersexed or trans occurs at the same frequency as being non-trans, which would be the only valid reason one would have to create a new term describing the remaining 99.8% of the human population (outside of a scientific discussion).
The dichlorocyclohexane example is a scientifically provable assertion. The two former ones are not because both do not describe not being trans, but make a statement about the identity of the people being labeled. That is the problem that term causes. The basic point is that if you only want to describe not being trans, it is best to simply use non-trans.
That one does not consider cisgender/cissexual insulting is immaterial. Some may not consider hermaphrodite insulting, but those who that term would be applied to might be insulted by it, despite that it is actually a scientific term. So to the extent that a term is being applied, it would be best to acknowledge the feelings of the people you are labeling. If they say it is insulting, then it is, regardless of your intent, although obviously the term is meant to intentionally challenge those people’s perspective of their identities (in a “socially constructed” context).
As for the examples you gave, the only one that is applicable is gentile. While Jews might apply this term to non-Jews, it is unfair and unrealistic for Jews to demand that non-Jews call themselves gentiles just for Jews convenience, particularly if those people belong to another faith or reject religion altogether, specifically because it is a loaded religious word.
Definition of Intersex from the UK Intersex Society:
From the (defunct) Intersex Society of North America
Feel free to confine your own definition to genetic mutations(only) and ignore developmental anomalies that give the same effect. Of course, then you’d have to distinguish the phocomelia from exposure to Thalidomide from the phocomelia caused by genetic whoopsies, and the phocomelia with cause unknown, as being three different things.
I’m a little more pragmatic, and follow the simple definition of Anne Fausto-Stirling in her book “Gendering the Body”.
So we should abandon the phrase “right-handed” too, because the split there is not 50/50? Or abandon “brunette” because the split there isn’t 50/50? Or abandon both “right handed” and “left handed” because few people are ambidextrous?
Worldwide, there are more people with Intersex conditions than either of the mutations that cause blue eyes or red hair. It’s only because most of the western world has a lot of people with ancestry from NW Europe, where both mutations are common, that we don’t look on them as rare abnormalities.
While it would be unreasonable for someone of the Jewish faith to insist on everyone else calling themselves “gentiles”, when in the context of talking about the privilege non-jews have over jews, then “gentile-privilege” is appropriate. Similarly, while it would not be reasonable for a black to insist that non-blacks refer to themselves as whites, in the context of talking about the privilege non-blacks have over blacks, “white privilege” is also appropriate.
Neither of the definitions you quoted are based on empirical or scientific conclusions. There is no science backing the claim, which seems dubious because both definitions imply that they are fact and the second one includes many assertions without providing any quantitative support. It is fine if you personally agree with those definitions, just as it is fine that some people believe in Creationism. However, both still remain opinion because they have no objective evidence demonstrating their veracity. Perhaps this standard seems unfair, but it is the only accurate and logical means of determining whether or not something is true or occurs. It is unwise to present opinion as fact simply because one believes it is true, and it is dangerous to use loose analogies to support weak positions as it taints our ability and willingness to engage in objective investigation.
I am curious about the claim that there are more intersexed people that people with blue eyes and red hair. Do you have any evidence to support that assertion? As for both being abnormalities, the fact that there are millions of people with blue eyes or with red hair actually has no impact on the biological reason for their occurrence. According to well-researched science, both still result from recessive traits and are therefore remain abnormalities.
The example you gave about gentile and white would only be applicable in context to in-group discussions, i.e. discussions that take place within a Jewish or black-centered framework. Outside of that it becomes problematic because one would still be forcing a loaded term onto a large group of people who either do not accurately fit the term (all non-black people are not white) or do not agree with the term’s use at all (such as atheists objecting to the enforcement of religious doctrine).
It is important to note that the reason for usage of the terms cissexual/cisgender has jumped from just describing not being trans to normalizing being trans to redefining how we view sex to ridding us of social constructs to creating a term to challenge and address privilege. I think this demonstrates that the terms have absolutely nothing to do with describing an observable state of being or a set of actions. Rather, they are about making a political statement and forcing a set of beliefs from one group onto another who rejects the espoused theories.
Evidence:
Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality. By Anne Fausto-Sterling. New York: Basic Books, 2000
Review at the Journal of Sex Research
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_38/ai_75820044/
Frequency of Intersex Conditions (quoting some of the above)
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
Frequency of Transsexuality
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html
Including links to reports
Presentation to the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association 2009.
Symposium Title: The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism
Title of Presentation: Brain Gender Identity
Abstract:
Gender Identity is that innate sense of who you are in this world with reference to your sexuality and behavior, not necessarily corresponding to your genitalia and reproductive organs. Transgenders are atypical and “think” as the opposite gender. Certain areas of the brain have been shown to be sexually dimorphic. They are different in structure and numbers of neurons in males versus females. Protein Receptors for the sex hormones in different areas of the brain (limbic and anterior hypothalamic) must be present in sufficient numbers to receive those powerful hormones. There are androgen receptors (AR), Estrogen Receptors (ER), and Progesterone receptors (PRs). ARs or ERs are predominant at different times in different parts of the human brain. Hormone receptor genes have been identified in humans, which are responsible for sexually dimorphic brain differentiation in the hypothalamus. The groundwork in brain gender identity is gene-directed and takes place by forming male and female hormone receptors in the brain before the gonads and hormones can influence them. Multiple genes acting in concert determine our sexual identity. The human brain continues to make neurons and synaptic neuronal connections throughout life. This contributes to Gender Role Behaviors making individuals in the continuum of gender identity. Gender behaviors must be differentiated from gender identity (Hines). Gender Identity cannot be predicted from anatomy (Reiner). Brain gender identity is determined very early in fetal development, but gender expression, expressed as behaviors requires hormonal, environmental, social and cultural interactions, which evolve with time. One cannot deny the profound effects of Testosterone, Estradiol and other steroids on genital differentiation in-utero or their effects on behavior from birth or the physical and mental cross gender changes caused by exogenous hormones, but gender identity is determined before and persists in spite of these effects.
References:
1.DF Swaab, WC Chung, FP Kruijver, MA Hofman, TA Ishunina
Structural and functional sex differences in the human hypothalamus
Horm Behav. Sep, 2001; 40(2): 93-8. Review
2. DF Swaab
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation
Gynecol Endocrinol. Dec, 2004; 19(6): 301-12. Review.
3.IE Sommer, PT Cohen-Kettenis, T van Raalten, AJ Vd Veer, LE Ramsey, LJ Gooren, RS Kahn, NF Ramsey
Effects of cross-sex hormones on cerebral activation during language and mental rotation: An fMRI study in transsexuals
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. Mar 2008; 18(3): 215-21.
4.H Berglund, P Lindstrom, C Dhejne-Helmy, I Savic
Male to female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids
Cereb Cortex. Aug 2008; 18(8): 1900-8.
Powerpoint Presentation available at
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%203.3.2.ppt
List of supporting papers at
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/BGI%20REF%203.pdf
I have rather more data on the subject. e.g.
Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;
…the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.
Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041
The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.
Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.
Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.
Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al Biological Psychiatry Volume 65, Issue 1, Pages 93-96 (1 January 2009)
A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 – 59
fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft Ärzte Zeitung, 30.05.2006
So würden bei Männern das limbische System und dort vor allem Regionen im Hypothalamus, in den Mandelkernen und im Inselkortex wesentlich stärker aktiviert. “Diese Vorbefunde konnten wir beim Vergleich der heterosexuellen Männer und Frauen unserer Kohorte bestätigen”, sagte Gizewski.
Bei den transsexuellen Männern gab es diese spezifisch männliche Aktivierung des limbischen Systems nicht. Die mit der fMRT erzeugten Bilder entsprachen vielmehr exakt denen der weiblichen Probanden.
Die Radiologen können also das, was die transsexuellen Männer angeben – daß sie sich nämlich “wie im falschen Körper” fühlen – anhand der Aktivierung des Gehirns auf erotische Stimuli bestätigen. Es gibt offenbar ein biologisches Korrelat des subjektiven Befunds.
Translation:
In men, the limbic system and upper regions of the hypothalamus, the amygdalae and the insular cortex were activated substantially more strongly. “We confirmed this finding in the comparison between the heterosexual men and women of our Cohort”, said Gizewski.
This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.
Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report – that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” – on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.
And rather more besides. You’ve misunderstood me – I’m not talking about opinion, I’m talking about facts. Empirical evidence. Measurements.
Now your objective empirical evidence is?
My objective empirical evidence is actually found in the evidence you cited that relies on science. The latter most evidence actually demonstrates that humans are binary-sex species, as the researcher asserts, “This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.” I assume that the research was referring to a transwoman. If this is the case, then the comment indicates that transwomen do not exhibit a new sex characteristic, i.e. they are not a new sex. Their brains appear to be set up like a female brain. I have read similar studies stating the reverse (along with studies suggesting that masculine women and effeminate men might have the opposite sex’s brain).
If it were true that humans are not dimorphic, meaning that there are a number of different sexes, why is it that transpeople’s brains do not demonstrate this? Why, when we study their brain structure and how it functions, do their brains appear either male or female, but not both or somewhere in between? An objective person would argue that it is difficult to tell whether a person is born this way because all of these studies were conducted on adults whose brains have fully developed. The brain can be altered due to environment, chemicals, life experience, etc., so it would be prudent to conduct such studies on younger people, both trans and not trans, in order to determine whether this is natural occurrence or something that results from a lifetime of experience living and perceiving oneself as the opposite sex.
However, the evidence as it stands suggests that, if transpeople are born “in the wrong body,” their brain corresponds to the opposite sex only, meaning that even the anomaly of transsexuality is still governed by human’s biological dimorphism.
Coincidentally, the same evidence also demonstrates that the argument of sex being socially constructed cannot be true because transpeople’s brains read as the opposite sex. Unless one wishes to contend that transmen are following the social construction for men and transwomen following the social construction for women, the argument that sex is not related in any way to biology actually implies that transpeople cannot be “born” in the wrong body because there is no “male” or “female.”
The simple gender binary model is an excellent approximation. It would be foolish to deny that a gender binary works in most cases. It would be only slightly less foolish though to deny that it is a bimodal distribution, rather than a binary.
I usually find myself on the biological vs social construct side, arguing that a lot of what we call “gendered behaviour” is, if not biologically determined, heavily influenced by biology.
I cannot deny though that most of what we call “gendered behaviour” is a social construct, and that while some of it has a weak and tenuous biological basis, a lot of it really is wholly arbitrary.
As regards sex, 59 people out of 60 conform to a binary biological model very well. Exactly though?…..
Take the example statement “Men are taller than women”. You can argue that it’s self-evidently true, objectively the average heights differ significantly. That does not mean that all women are shorter than all men though, there is some overlap. On that basis you can argue that it’s false.
You have to take people on their merits, as individuals, and realise that while models such as the binary sex model or the binary gender model may be very useful, and “true” in that sense (they work), there are exceptions that need looking at too.
Bimodal distribution does not seem applicable to this particular issue, particularly since it is unclear what you are comparing. The comparison to the difference in height of men and women does not work as the difference is too small to produce bimodal distribution given their standard deviation rate. The argument that men are on average taller than women would not be proven false. Only the assertion that all men are taller than all women in order for random variances to be proven false.
However, that example is inapplicable to whether humans are a binary species because there is no empirical evidence demonstrating that there are more sexes other than male or female in humans, other primates or mammals in general. Even if one could argue that social biases would have prevented scientists from acknowledging more sexes in humans, it is difficult to argue that they would have ignored it in other mammals. Yet, there is no evidence of other primates, particularly apes and chimps, exhibiting a third, fourth or fifth sex.
As for taking people on their merits, acknowledging that there are people who disagree with demonstrable evidence is fine. The notion that one must give equal weight to empirically disproved theories is not. The “exceptions” is this instance are more akin to evolution versus creationism. One may believe that latter, but the former appears to be fact. In regards to this sort of issue, it is best to focus only what can be proven to be true, not what people feel is true.
I was at my boyfriend’s all week and wasn’t able to check this blog during that time. Sorry for my absence. I’ll read up what I missed and might reply some.
“The trans population rate is not particularly weird as it represents about 0.2% of the general population. What is perhaps more surprising is that in a culture that okays and encourages such transitions that more do not happen.”
It’s because it’s a biological phenomena, simply. You’re either trans or you’re not. Being encouraged to transition, or being repressed from doing so, will not change that. The biological state of being trans, or intersex, is like my blue eyes, or my ambidextrousness (sure it’s not a word but meh), it’s fundamentally set.
Of course, people in the genderqueer category screw up your perfectly divided in two at 50.000% thing. They feel like one or the other and it varies. I don’t understand the phenomena enough to be certain, but from what I’ve seen and read, they are neither comfortable as male or female. Sometimes transition, sometimes don’t. They are trapped sort of, since you can’t transition to an intersex state, properly speaking. This is regardless of gender roles.
People whom gender roles are their concern are called androgynous, agender, androgyne. They are not genderqueer.
“Actually, it would be presented as a recessive gene that might need a certain set of conditions and circumstances to activate or as the result of a biological or genetic fluke. It could very much be that our genetic coding tells us to like the opposite sex, but there may be a mistake in the hormonal distribution in the early stages of development or something that results from the mother’s body or any number of things. We are not sure, so it is unwise to claim that the existence of certain phenomena cannot result from an accident of nature.”
It’s highly unlikely that a “fluke” would affect 5-10% of the population.
Taking another example, such as handedness. There are about 8 times more right-handed people as there are left-handed or ambidextrous people. Does this mean that being left-handed or ambidextrous is a mistake? Well, contrary to being heterosexual, one cannot determine which handedness is “superior”, because either are fine for propagating your genes. Why would one occur significantly more though? I have no idea. But can we consider one maladapted and the other “right”?
We consider evolutive success to the amount of offsprings, probably for our love of numbers or something. We also can’t know if this is the right measure. We have decided this based on warfare, conquest, conflicts etc, not on objective non-human data. Being gay, lesbian, bisexual or asexual, and not procreating, is probably not maladaptive, the same way my handedness is not. We just don’t know why it occurs. We also don’t know why we live (we know how, but the meaning of life has captivated probably for millions of years).
We could say the same for trans people. There’s probably some purpose somewhere. What? No idea. Not transitioning is probably not the purpose (the argument not to change one’s body is Judeo-Chretian, not an edict of life itself), but in any case, it causes infertility. Wether someone has offspring of their own means something mostly to them. Adopting is just as good, and adoption’s been there for millenia. Some people also choose to be childless and put more energy elsewhere, and nothing is lost. Who wants more mouths to feed than there is food anyways?
“That may be the case, but there is one obvious difference: those people had those parts and they were later removed. Trans people do not have the opposite parts and they were not removed. In order this example to be applicable, one would have to demonstrate that people feel the presence of limbs or other appendages that are not part of their body and never were.”
I feel deep in my pelvis when aroused. And it’s not my prostate. I don’t know how I could demonstrate it, it just is how I feel. My penis has nearly no sensation save for the very tip, which is extremely sensible.
Also, something you may not be aware of:
Estrogen to an average man would have depressive effects. On a trans woman, or intersex woman, transitioning, it has anti-depressive effects. I’ve never been able to have sperm, either with or without spermatozoa also. That was considered a bit weird but nothing beyond that. I’ve also had zero libido, despite having average adult levels of testosterone before my transition. Testosterone would normally give libido, but to me it has the opposite effect. I have no idea what this means. It seems pretty uncommon even amongst trans women.
“Again, I think this is really what the terms are about. The problem is that the word normal basically means the thing that occurs most often. While there is political baggage attached to the word, the fact remains that non-transpeople are the norm.”
The problem lies in the opposite of normal: anormal, and it’s baggage. It’s a very loaded word that every category from disabled people to left-handed people to fat people to people with glasses have tried to (and have somewhat successfully) removed from acceptable vocabulary. Why would it be acceptable for trans, or intersex, people to be considered anormal, as in the term.
Having a term meaning trans and another meaning its opposite removes that baggage and centers the language on trans people, not as objects, freaks of nature, anormal people, but as just another kind of normal people.
Left-handed people are considered normal, even if not common, because it’s considered wrong to label them badly (now anyway, another thing 40-50 years ago).
“Some may not consider hermaphrodite insulting, but those who that term would be applied to might be insulted by it, despite that it is actually a scientific term. ”
It used to be, it’s been officially changed for intersex over a decade ago.
“If this is the case, then the comment indicates that transwomen do not exhibit a new sex characteristic, i.e. they are not a new sex. ”
I never considered trans women or trans men as a “new sex” and would find it rather insulting to be considered to be a third sex. I am a woman, female, period. Calling me otherwise is disrespectful.
Doing like older scientifics and more recent archaic ones (Blanchard) and calling trans women as transsexual males does a disservice to our community. Much like calling a black person a nigger.
Biologically speaking, it is entirely probable that a large percentage of the population could possess a genetic abnormality that results from their genes doing something that generally does not occur. This occurs with people with poor eyesight, poor hearing, physical disabilities and predispositions to a host of illnesses. The majority of those things occur because of the person’s genes either doing something that generally does not occur or the passing on of a recessive trait. The term “fluke” is not meant to say that it is a bad thing, only that in general that is not the process that is supposed to occur. Of course, one must keep in mind that some behaviors may have become a biological trait due to their consistent use over thousands of years. So it is possible that, given humans tendency to use sex as a form of socializing, many people carry a recessive “gay gene” that may be activated in the womb if certain circumstances occur. How this would relate to transsexuality is unclear as it does not seem to fit within our general methods of socialization, specifically given the separation of men and women in most societies.
As for the reason why more people are right-handed, there have been studies suggesting that the left side of the brain is the more critical, analytic side. That may explain, in part, why humans tend to use their right hands more than their left, along with various cultural and social norms.
When I mentioned people feeling the presence of limbs or body parts they never had, I meant people in general, not just people in the trans community. That is important because it would demonstrate that this phenomena is not isolated to a specific group of people, but is a general human experience.
True, however, the word is technically applicable. My poor vision is abnormal, as is my height. I think the most reasonable solution would be to address the baggage contained in the word first rather than creating new ones. Also, since transpeople have a word they prefer to use, it would be best to use that word rather than abnormal.
The words do not remove the baggage. It is still there. The difference is that now trans people would be allowed to force a set of opinions about human biology on everyone else and dictate to others what their identities are. I think it is fair to ask others not to treat trans people as freaks. I do not think it is fair to demand that people consider trans people normal, particularly when trans people represent a very small portion of the human population.
“When I mentioned people feeling the presence of limbs or body parts they never had, I meant people in general, not just people in the trans community. That is important because it would demonstrate that this phenomena is not isolated to a specific group of people, but is a general human experience.”
Well, how would they know? I’m not sure what you’re asking. If someone is blind, they’re going to wonder why they don,t have eyesight, asking someone with eyesight to imagine having four eyes for the sake of sensing something that isn’t there, doesn’t make sense to me.
If someone had their arm amputated, they can feel it even though it’s not there. And there is anecdotal evidence that trans men feel a penis, and trans women feel internal structures, that aren’t there in both cases. You can’t ask someone who doesn’t suffer if they’re missing something – they’d probably know if they do, and not have waited for you to ask (and thus they wouldn’t be non-trans or non-amputated). I just don’t get where you’re going with this.
In short, if they’re not missing something and feeling bad about it to the point where it affects their life (and thus they know), they’re not missing something.
“True, however, the word is technically applicable. My poor vision is abnormal, as is my height. I think the most reasonable solution would be to address the baggage contained in the word first rather than creating new ones.”
We need to do advocacy now, not in 20 years when abnormal has lost its baggage. It sounds almost like feminists sometimes acting as if we should do like a post-gender world. Ironically it’s been done a lot to trans people. Being told gender does not exist, because in their utopia it won’t, leaves me pretty cold.
I’m speaking about advocacy to treat trans and intersex people like human beings, who have rights, who need healthcare, and housing and employment, and an effective police force who doesn’t ridicule or beat them up. This isn’t something you can “do later”.
What I am stating is that the phantom limb sensation is common. Many people who have lost limbs experience it, not just people who went through severe trauma. That demonstrates that the phenomena is not isolated to a certain set circumstances, such as losing a limb in battle or in an accident. The reports that I have read about this phenomena have never stated that the person misses the limb. Sometimes people feel these sensations years later after they have gotten used to not having the limb or use prosthetic. So it is possible that the sensation occurs simply because the brain still sends signals to the missing limb, giving the impression that the limb is still there.
In regards to the total absence of a limb or body part, it has not been shown that people in general experience this. What I mean is that one would have to show that a person born with no legs feels as if he ought to have legs and even feels as if he has shins, ankles and toes. That would demonstrate that such sensations are a common experience and not isolated to a specific set of circumstances that would rule them out as an abnormality. That would then bolster the claim that people have the sensation of having a penis or vagina when they physically do not have that particularly organ. Likewise, the anecdotal reporting of those sensations should probably be compared to the sensations of people who have a penis or a vagina. In that way we could tell whether what is being reported is an accurate or similar experience to the general sensations associated with those organs or if it is merely the person convincing him or herself that the body part is there.
Advocacy is different from dictating what opinions people are allowed to hold. To say that trans people should not be denied rights is a fair goal. That does not require people to believe that sex is purely a social construct and that they were simply assigned a gender at birth, nor does it require people to believe that transsexuality is a normal, biological part of the human condition. The political views on this issue are no different than a set of religious views. One can argue that Jews should not have to WASP up their names to fit in society. One cannot argue, however, that non-Jews should call themselves gentiles or that non-Jews should practice and agree with Jewish beliefs. The former is tolerance, which should be the goal. The latter is forcing a set of beliefs onto people, which causes further conflict and animosity.
Should I force people to agree with white beliefs? The belief that I am white-skinned. I think they agree already.
Skin color is plainly visible to the naked eye. Not so for such things as cancer, an intersex condition, or another inborn condition such as asperger syndrome, or someone being trans.
Because of the age of transition in the west and the limitations of technology you might be able to “spot” a trans woman, at least as being a bit weird. Some are more lucky than others or transition young. But their visibility as different is not what makes them trans, it’s a big part of what makes others uncomfortable though.
But it goes further than this. People don’t “read” me as trans. My voice might sound midway, but it never makes people think I’m a man. At best they think my voice is just that way, and that I’m a normal woman. And besides taking lifelong hormones starting in my 20s, I am a normal woman, too.
But if they find out in other ways, like my legal name or sex on an ID, a paper from employment, the government etc. Suddenly their tune might change for the worst. Suddenly I’m a traitor, a deceiver, a fake.
Being trans occurs naturally, transitioning not so much although it’s done mainly with natural means (hormones are natural, every human needs them to live on the long term).
The belief that my feeling testosterone as being alien to me, as opposed to estrogen, is corroborated by what my body does, how it reacts. My body chemistry hates testosterone, and likes estrogen. Having a libido based solely on estrogen might sound an alien concept to many, but to me it’s what I live.
8 consecutive years of acne vulgaris, caused by testosterone, that suddenly go away in a short time, due to testosterone being blocked and estrogen fighting it. That’s a physical proof. My testosterone levels were average, smack in the middle, not high at all. Acne is caused by what the body does not absorb, what is rejected. It is rejected partly in urine, in sweat and, yes if there’s some left: acne.
Having zero libido to the point of considering myself asexual. Which changed once I started the hormone treatment. I went from average testosterone for an adult male to average for an adult female (10 times less) and it *increased* my libido. Another proof that my body had an intense dislike for testosterone.
You don’t need to have the term cissexual or cisgender except when speaking of trans people and in relation to them (or you wouldn’t need to include yourself in the conversation probably).
The same way I don’t need to identify myself as white unless people of color becomes the conversation topic. Otherwise it’s more or less useless information.
So in short, you use the term cissexual or cisgender, when relating your experience as compared to trans people, not when comparing it to people of color, disabled people, poor people etc.
We all have tons of label, they are only appropriate at certain times. North America and the world in general, has an intense focus on wether someone is male or female, and probably for concerns beyond reproduction or having sex. Labels like being white, a person of color, able-bodied or disabled, blue-eyed or red-eyed, tall or short, don’t come up outside of a certain context.
If you get crap because of a certain characteristic, you can nail what caused it, why it happened, and what could be done for it not to occur again.
Cissexism is the act of discriminating against trans people on the basis of being trans. Non-trans sexism would sound pretty weird. And it’s different from plain sexism as well.
Cissexual privilege is, much like white privilege, unidirectional (unlike male privilege, which has its counterpart, female privilege). Someone who’s not trans won’t be discriminated against in any way significantly, because of them not being trans. Much like my being white won’t bring me comparable discrimination to how I would be discriminated against for being black.
Calling it non-trans privilege sounds everything but professional. It’s like calling white privilege non-poc privilege.
You won’t be refused housing because you’re not trans, unless you try to go to very specific housing place given by volunteers that house otherwise-homeless trans people. You risk being refused housing for being trans though, or being refused a job on the spot, which you’re qualified for, or being treated by paramedics before it’s too late, or being taken seriously by police officers when you have a black eye or a knife wound or report battering or rape. Being insured for your needs (specifically, many insurance companies deliberately refuse to insure anything remotely linked to trans treatments, even if it has nothing to do with it, like general bloodwork, or STI screening).
All this can be taken for granted because of cissexual privilege.
People like me, who are not immediately known to be trans (not by looking anyways), still risk that, much like a bi-racial person passing-for-white risks being a victim of racism at any time their ethnicity is found out.
Needing documentation for work, such as legal name and legal sex, just to get a job, or a loan, or a bank account, or to travel abroad, or to rent an apartment, and now the US with their super-ID combining all IDs together, outing every trans who hasn’t made their legal changes. All this makes it dangerous, even for me, because an ID, picture or not, will out me. That is because changing legal sex requires surgery done, and some places don’t even allow the change to be made at all. Surgery costs money, being unemployed means less moneu. Catch-22 anyone?
So advocacy needs to be done, using those terms cissexual and cisgender, when speaking to organizations, governments and other people who can make a real change to this situation.
To you personally, if you don’t deal with trans people, and are not the government, it won’t come up. Much like my having no friend of color (and few friends at all) makes my whiteness never come up.