#INeedMasculismBecause

I must admit I have a serious character flaw: I enjoy when people are tricked into their true nature. It takes skill to get a person to loose their tongue and thoroughly embarrass themselves. I most enjoy it when it happens to politicians pretending to care about something they honestly could not care less about.

A close second is watching ideologues show their true colors. Again, it takes skill and subtly. One must give the ideologue something that will attract them, something that fuels their appetite, and something that allows them to think they are getting one over someone else.

Enter 4chan. I am no fan of the site or its audience. However, a few of them decided to play a trick on feminists that has worked better than the 4chaners’ widest dreams. I give you the Twitter hashtag #INeedMasculismBecause.

If ever one wanted to see ideologues unleashed, reading feminists’ tweets on the hashtag will certainly suffice. Not since Fox News slipped into the Twilight Zone when Mitt Romney lost in November have I seen people so eagerly wallow in their own ideological stupidity. To put it another, if I or anyone else said that hundreds of feminists trolled a Twitter hashtag just to mock men, feminists would deny that would ever happen, and claim that I or whoever said that were sexists of the highest order.

And yet that is exactly what happened. But that is not the best part. The best part is that was the intention of the hashtag. From 4chan:

Lets piss off some Feminists.
Fire up the troll twitter accounts and lets get
#INeedMasculismBecause
trending. If woman can demand special treatment I say we start making demands too.

Current suggestions
>I need Masculism because I should not automatically have to pay for a dinner because of my gender.
>I need Masculism because I should be treated equally to a woman who slaps a man, when I hit a woman.
>I need Masculism because I refused to be accused of rape because she decided later that she shouldn’t have slept with me
>I need Masculism because I should be allowed to make advances on a woman without because a pervert
>I need Masculism because I should not automatically have to the one in a relationship who has to change
>I need Masculism because men and woman should both be registered for the draft
>I need Masculism because a man should have the option to quit their job and become a “homemaker” too
>I need Masculism because sometimes a woman is just completely fucking wrong about something
>I need Masculism because I am not a monster for not giving two shits about your “struggle”
>I need Masculism because any man in any commercial is automatically portrayed as an idiot, but a negative portrayal of a woman is automatically met with backlash
>I need Masculism because you should not be allowed to use sex to get your way, unless I am too

The initial goal was just to annoy feminists by pointing out the obvious, yet feminists decided to go full Pavlov’s dog and totally take the bait. Not only did feminists hijack the hashtag, but they have tweeted so much hateful, misandrist nonsense that when you look up the word “troll” you see this logo.

4chan not only conned feminists into losing their collective minds by gleefully mocking men’s concerns, but they incidentally got feminists to reveal how bigoted and biased they really are. One could not write this kind of thing, and it is wonderfully ironic to watch people who complain about men’s rights activists trolling their spaces troll a hashtag for men.

If one wants an explanation for why I do not have a high opinion of feminists, #INeedMasculismBecause is a good place to start. Instead of writing something positive and turning 4chan’s attempt to mock them on its head, feminists played into by revealing their true biases. Worse, whenever anyone tweets something positive about men or treats the hashtag seriously, feminists mock those tweets as well. These are ironically the same people who will then turn around and claim they care about men and men’s issues.

The sad part is that in a few days this will all pass.

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80 thoughts on “#INeedMasculismBecause

  1. Yes, because nothing establishes the moral high ground like posing as a victim of sexual assault, creating a hashtag full of ridiculously sexist thoughts, enlisting the aid of people who occasionally need to be reminded that child porn is a bad thing even if it’s drawn to fill it with MORE horrendously sexist things that people actually believe, and doing so just for the sake of your own amusement.

    Oh wait, it actually does the *opposite* of that. Propagating harmful gender stereotypes and trivializing actual victimization for giggles actually makes you as bad as you were pretending to be, if not worse. Whoops.

  2. Well, I believe in equality. So if misandrists can troll feminist media…we can do the same back. Everyone gets to play, darling.

    Yes, equality means doing to others what you do not want done to you.

  3. Yes, because nothing establishes the moral high ground like posing as a victim of sexual assault, creating a hashtag full of ridiculously sexist thoughts, enlisting the aid of people who occasionally need to be reminded that child porn is a bad thing even if it’s drawn to fill it with MORE horrendously sexist things that people actually believe, and doing so just for the sake of your own amusement.

    Yes, and nothing establishes the moral high ground like accusing someone of lying about their assault, trolling a hashtag full of benign yet true observations, enlisting the aid of people who frequently need to be reminded that raping boys and men is a bad thing even if happens slightly less than female rape to fill the hashtag with more horrendously sexist things that feminists actually believe, and doing so just for the sake of your own amusement.

    Oh wait, it actually does the opposite of that. You are right. Propagating harmful gender stereotypes and trivializing actual victimization for giggles actually makes you as bad as you were pretending not to be, if not worse. I would suggest that feminists should stop, but they are doing such an excellent job of embarrassing themselves.

  4. It’s amazing that the reaction to “Let’s fix men’s problems!” is “Men don’t have problems ever!” except the “right” to beat and rape their dates/girlfriend/wife without being prosecuted.

    That people are saying that men’s problems are 1st world problems as compared to women’s 3rd world problems. Not even worth investigating in fact.

    Or the most funny of them all: That feminism has it covered already. (Then where are the DV shelters for men? Where’s the funding for it? Where’s the awareness campaigns against violence against men?)

    Fact is, wether it’s conservators (religious or not) or liberals, most people seem to care up to 3-4x more about women than men. And the only men that the people on top care about…are other men on top (already rich), who represent a TINY % of all men. And they’re not trying to make male privileges better, they’re supplementing to rich privileges (to which rich women also benefit, namely the family of the richest men, if not also women who made their own fortunes as well).

  5. Right, because saying “raping men and boys is okay” is totally a thing a lot of feminists say. It’s a real problem in the modern world, especially in places like ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.

    And fine, so claiming you were the victim of sexual assault is one of the few things you weren’t lying about. The fact you’re still saying it now, *after* you’re through “trolling” the hashtag means I don’t really have any reason to doubt your sincerity. So, some measure of my initial sympathy for you still stands, despite your shitty behavior and deliberately misrepresented statistics that I was more than willing to chalk up to feelings of betrayal and confusion rather than an insanely inappropriate desire to start a shitstorm over real problems because you were feeling bored and wanted entertainment. You didn’t deserve to be assaulted, but that doesn’t make what you did any less dismissive and reprehensible just because you did it to “annoy feminists.”

    Clearly, saying inane things like “70% of male rape is committed by women” is just harmless fun when the study you were so eager to link to in support of that claim doesn’t support it (~70% of the ~6.7% who WEREN’T raped exclusively by men is the real number). Because hey, why try to actually focus attention on the group overwhelmingly committing those rapes, right? Better to piss off feminists and claim they’re really just suppressing that information because they’re telling you you’re a lying piece of shit. Forget the several who didn’t dispute the fact men are raped, or that men aren’t the exclusive perpetrators. Better to convince them you’re more interested in making it sound like feminists and women are to blame for the lack of attention than someone interested in ending the sort of society that convinces people women only get raped because they were “asking for it” or they’re just lying about it, either to hurt men or get attention. Conveniently enough, the same society that discourages the acknowledgement that men can be harmed by rape, emotionally and physically, because the act itself is intended as one of domination and admitting it results in dismissal or ridicule (often in the form of gendered insults, strangely enough).

    While we’re at it, let’s also forget that most of those “misandrist” tweets were lampooning the sort of idiocy that plenty of “Men’s Rights Activists” actually believe (and just incredibly sexist people in general). Or things actually happening throughout the world right now and are somehow not worthy of attention otherwise. Clearly, it’s an unabashed full-on assault on men in general. Just like disputing the claim that only “slightly less” men are raped than women, once again ignoring the data you supplied yourself that puts it in that too-close-to-call range of a less than 1 to 2 ratio, counting the incidents of “sexual assaults other than rape” (yes I’m aware it’s an asinine claim that being forced to penetrate someone or coercion isn’t rape, I’m including the numbers and quotation marks for that reason).

    For what it’s worth, I really hope you actually do manage to help more people than you’ve undoubtedly hurt with this ridiculous stunt. Because nobody deserves to be the victim of rape, regardless of who’s doing it. But the thing is, belittling more widespread problems just so you can prove a point or enjoy a few chuckles out of it isn’t exactly going to solve things either.

  6. Schala, the reason there isn’t more support for male domestic abuse victims is pretty simple. Men haven’t set them up. There is no governing body who decides which victims are allowed support services. Women, usually women who have been affected by domestic violence, worked extremely hard and against a lot of pressure to set up shelters and services for other women, and quite a few have lost their lives for it. Men haven’t put in that work. It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter. (Though bearing in mind that victims of same-sex violence are likely to feel discomfort/unsafe either way, unfortunately, which is a problem no one’s found a solution to yet.)

  7. “(~70% of the ~6.7% who WEREN’T raped exclusively by men is the real number). ”
    Is this a dig at the CDC NISVS2010? Which clearly shows 79.2% of the male victims forced to penetrate someone were made to penetrate a woman, ie a female rapist? and overall the majority of rape against men is perpetrated by women? I think the lifetime stats worked out to a ratio of 1 female perpetrated rape for every 4 male perpetrated rapes, roughly 20% of rapes overall perpetrated by females, but over 1/2 for male victims only.

    All this trolling, what does it accomplish? Feminists showed their bigotry, some trolls showed their bigotry, some people talked about real concerns men face and it got laughed at. I just don’t see the point of all this hate?

  8. Right, because saying “raping men and boys is okay” is totally a thing a lot of feminists say. It’s a real problem in the modern world, especially in places like ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.

    A strawman right from the start? Typical and rather childish. What I wrote was “enlisting the aid of people who frequently need to be reminded that raping boys and men is a bad thing even if happens slightly less than female rape”. If you care to refute that, be my guest. However, it is very easy to find examples of feminists downplaying rape against males.

    And fine, so claiming you were the victim of sexual assault is one of the few things you weren’t lying about.

    That your first impulse when I mentioned my experiences was to accuse me of lying about them speak volumes about your character, or lack thereof. That no feminists checked you on it speak volumes about theirs. That said, I do not about your opinion of my experiences one way or another.

    The fact you’re still saying it now, *after* you’re through “trolling” the hashtag means I don’t really have any reason to doubt your sincerity.

    How can you accuse me of “trolling” a hashtag when I responded sincerely to the concept of said tag? The only people trolling the hashtag are the scores of feminists tweeted insults, slurs, and mountains of sexism.

    and deliberately misrepresented statistics

    I did not misrepresent any statistics. According to the CDC, “For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown).”

    The researchers did not count “being forced to penetrate” as rape because, “Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victimization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explicitly measured in previous national studies. It is possible that rape questions in prior studies captured the experience of being made to penetrate someone else, resulting in higher prevalence estimates for male rape in those studies.”

    In other words, they excluded it to deliberately lower the rate of rape against males their research found. Nevertheless, if one looks at the above data and count it as rape, as it is counted in all 50 states, women commit about 72% (or 71.967%) rape against males.

    You didn’t deserve to be assaulted, but that doesn’t make what you did any less dismissive and reprehensible just because you did it to “annoy feminists.”

    I am aware that mentioning the rape of males annoys feminists. I will gladly annoy them if means making sure no man or boys suffers what I went through. However, I do enjoy the irony of feminists finding it annoying when men mention sexual violence against males while finding it perfectly fine for women and other feminists to mention sexual violence against females.

    Better to convince them you’re more interested in making it sound like feminists and women are to blame for the lack of attention

    No, that is just the typical dead horse feminists beat whenever someone mentions that feminists do nothing for male survivors of abuse.

    than someone interested in ending the sort of society that convinces people women only get raped because they were “asking for it” or they’re just lying about it, either to hurt men or get attention.

    That is a red herring. One can take sexual violence against males and females seriously while choosing to speak about the one closest to one’s own experiences while also not downplaying, denying, or minimizing another. Yet many feminists think that if anyone talks about male victimization that person is ignoring women. Again, the irony is impressive.

    Conveniently enough, the same society that discourages the acknowledgement that men can be harmed by rape, emotionally and physically, because the act itself is intended as one of domination and admitting it results in dismissal or ridicule (often in the form of gendered insults, strangely enough).

    Men Can Stop Rape and NOMAS are two prominent anti-rape, feminist organizations, and yet they have done no outreach for male victims. Male victimization simply is not an issue that interest feminists beyond how they can exploit it to attack “The Patriarchy”.

    While we’re at it, let’s also forget that most of those “misandrist” tweets were lampooning the sort of idiocy that plenty of “Men’s Rights Activists” actually believe (and just incredibly sexist people in general).

    Except few men’s rights activists actually believe of the idiocy that feminists tweeted. What feminists tweeted is akin to the way the right ridicules President Obama. It is so outlandish and laughable that the tweets are little more than mutual masturbation.

    Or things actually happening throughout the world right now and are somehow not worthy of attention otherwise.

    Do you mean like how the United States and other coalition forces turn a blind eye to child rape in Afghanistan because the victims are boys while funding the people who rape them? Or perhaps you mean how the UN and human rights groups turn a blind eye to the thousands of boys and men raped in war-torn African countries while funding efforts to help female victims?

    Just like disputing the claim that only “slightly less” men are raped than women,

    Current research states that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused by the age of 18. The rates mean 25% of all women and 16% of all men were sexually abused as children. That rate never changes because all adults were children.

    So why do I think women are abused only slightly more than men? Because like boys, men are reluctant to report their abuse. To my knowledge, no studies outside of those about prison rape have specifically focused on sexual violence against adult males. So we have no accurate rate. However, it is improbable that men would make up the vast majority of victims of every type of person-on-person violent crime except rape. It makes no logical sense to believe that someone would beat, torture, burn, maim, poison, or kill a man, particularly to humiliate him, yet never rape him. The CDC report suggests the opposite: men are raped more often than we think. It is more likely that men are simply reluctant to come forward, and more probable that studies find lower rates of male victimization because of their methodology.

    For what it’s worth, I really hope you actually do manage to help more people than you’ve undoubtedly hurt with this ridiculous stunt.

    That is a nice example of projection.

    Because nobody deserves to be the victim of rape, regardless of who’s doing it.

    Given the abject animosity in your comments, I am not inclined to believe you.

    But the thing is, belittling more widespread problems just so you can prove a point or enjoy a few chuckles out of it isn’t exactly going to solve things either.

    Yes, I know. That is why I commented on the hashtag to tell feminists to stop belittling men’s problems for their own amusement.

  9. Saint Cynicism,

    “”I’m aware it’s an asinine claim that being forced to penetrate someone or coercion isn’t rape”

    No, you’re not. You don’t consider forcing a man to penetrate a woman rape, either.You make this clear when you say, concerning the percentage of male rape victims raped by women:

    “Clearly, saying inane things like “70% of male rape is committed by women” is just harmless fun when the study you were so eager to link to in support of that claim doesn’t support it (~70% of the ~6.7% who WEREN’T raped exclusively by men is the real number).”

    You’ve made Toy Soldier’s point. The CDC study reports that 93.3% of male “rape” victims were victimized exclusively by men, yes. The word gets scare quotes because, as you seem to allude to yourself, the CDC study also makes it quite clear that it- like you, and like most feminists who talk about the subject- does not count it as “rape” when a woman forces a man or boy to penetrate her sexually. That gets tucked in it’s own category, “Made to Penetrate,” and is tucked away under “Other Sexual Violence..” rape. Doesn’t matter if he’s unwilling, if he’s unconscious, if there’s a razor blade at his throat, if he’s two years old- not rape. Sex at the point of a gun is counted as rape if the gun is in the man’s hand, but not if it’s in the woman’s.

    So, not surprisingly, very few women commit a crime with a definition that has an “unless the perpetrator is a woman clause” for almost all of the acts counted as a form of the crime. Not many women commit “rape” as defined by the CDC, just like very few women are “raped” by their husbands in countries where marital rape is legal.

    And apparently, you already knew that. And agree with it, or you wouldn’t be holding up the perpetrator stats for the CDC’s definiton of “rape” as the true number and condemning Toy Soldier for taking into account the reported perpetrators for “made to penetrate” as well. If you count “made to penetrate” as rape- that is, if you are not a rape apologist- Toy Soldier’s numbers check out.

    But you don’t count it as rape, as we’ve seen. You don’t think a woman forcibly fucking a man or boy is committing rape, and when Toy Soldier treated it as if it actually were rape you were outraged.

    So yeah, “raping men and boys is okay” is something at least some feminists say, and you’re the proof. You and all the other feminist rape apologists like you who come crawling out of the woodwork when the sort of rape victim you want silenced tries to speak.

    “Just like disputing the claim that only “slightly less” men are raped than women, once again ignoring the data you supplied yourself that puts it in that too-close-to-call range of a less than 1 to 2 ratio”

    He’s talking about the stats for the last 12 month, which is a good idea if you want to 1. minimize the distorting effects of the malleability of long-term memory and 2. get a more accurate sense of the state of sexual violence in the present day. People who aren’t hell-bent on erasing huge numbers of rape victims are into that sort of thing.

    ” So, some measure of my initial sympathy for you still stands,..”

    That would be the sympathy that filled you back when you were accusing a rape victim of lying about it because he had the temerity to disagree with your politics and claim that his rape should actually be regarded as, y’know, rape. I’d ask what you do to men you DON’T feel sympathy for, but I’d probably sleep more soundly not knowing.

  10. Chris Miller,

    “There is no governing body who decides which victims are allowed support services.”

    There most assuredly are governing bodies that decide which victims get support from the government or other large institutions. Women’s shelters in the US get over half their funding from government bodies, mostly federal.

    “Women, usually women who have been affected by domestic violence, worked extremely hard and against a lot of pressure to set up shelters and services for other women, and quite a few have lost their lives for it. Men haven’t put in that work.”

    Men also have a good deal more pressure to work against and less support in their favor; not everybody has centuries of culture pushing the idea that their sex is frail and innocent while the other is mighty and brutish, for instance, and people interested in helping female victims of domestic violence never had to operate in an environment where even most of the people ostensibly dedicated to helping victims of domestic violence were hostile to their cause.

    Still, it’s certainly true that one of my sex’s more shameful traits is that so many of us are willing to do far more work trying to protect women than they ever would for other men. Nasty bit of patriarchal programming, that. But I suspect encouraging men to take some of the energy and money they’re directing towards helping women and using it for their fellow men instead is not what you had in mind.

    ” It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one [a men’s shelter] for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter.”

    You know, if feminists hadn’t driven Erin Pizzey out of the movement she helped found because she cared about male victims of domestic violence too, I doubt very many of the thousands of men she could have helped would have been all that bothered by the fact that their benefactor was a woman. But we’ll never know.

  11. Schala, the reason there isn’t more support for male domestic abuse victims is pretty simple. Men haven’t set them up. There is no governing body who decides which victims are allowed support services.

    That is not entirely true. Here in the United States, most advocates look to VAWA grants to fund their shelters, yet VAWA officials approves few grants for services for male victims.

    Women, usually women who have been affected by domestic violence, worked extremely hard and against a lot of pressure to set up shelters and services for other women, and quite a few have lost their lives for it. Men haven’t put in that work.

    The same could be said of the scores of services, programs, and institutions that men created and worked hard to support. Those men put in the work while women simply demanded access. However, neither are good arguments because we are talking about victims of abuse. One would think that anyone who needs help should get it regardless of who created the services. Likewise, most of the women who created those shelters also claim to support equality between the sexes. It is hypocritical for them to make that claim while refusing to treat male victims.

    It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter.

    That is a truly silly statement. Jan Brown runs The Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women, and no one takes issue with her doing that.

  12. “It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter.”
    Bullshit. Erin Prizzey started them for men, many men fight against domestic violence against women. The issue of a gender feeling unsafe around people of the opposite gender can be minimized by having staff of both genders and secure facilities to house the victims. I saw a doco once of both men n women victims under the same roof and they got along fine because they realized they were all victims. I am happy for women or men to start a shelter, we’re all in this fight together.

  13. “Right, because saying “raping men and boys is okay” is totally a thing a lot of feminists say. It’s a real problem in the modern world, especially in places like ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.”

    Germaine Greer.

  14. I challenge any feminist here to a debate where I take the position that women are not oppressed and men’s issues are altogether significantly more serious than women’s issues.

  15. “Men haven’t put in that work. It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter.”

    Yeah… not even close. I keep hearing “Men aren’t putting in the effort to make shelters”, but it’s only an excuse to dismiss the problem. The simple fact is that it nearly always comes down to funding. A commenter above mentioned Erin Prizzey, but I think they might not know that she DID try to make a men’s shelter – and, despite getting loads of funding for her women’s shelter, she could barely get any for the counterpart gender.

    She then blamed the lack of funding on feminism. Of course.

    “I challenge any feminist here to a debate where I take the position that women are not oppressed and men’s issues are altogether significantly more serious than women’s issues.”

    Let’s… not do that. Half because, while it /might/ be true, “X has it worse than Y” is extremely subjective and very, very hard to convince someone of. And half because this just simply isn’t the place.

  16. Also, feminists didn’t “put work in” to start up the DV support for women. Erin Pizzey set up the first few with donations and then the feminists marched in and took over and turned it into an industry.

    Then they proceeded to harass the woman who started the shelters because she expressed similar concern for male victims. Tells you all you need to know about these people.

  17. @ Plasma

    “Let’s… not do that. Half because, while it /might/ be true, “X has it worse than Y” is extremely subjective and very, very hard to convince someone of.”

    You can actually get past the subjective by doing what researchers do when they identify inequalities in other segments of a population by looking at statistics the pertain to living standards and prosperity.

    Also, while I agree that we shouldn’t have to do this, feminists practically force us to do so by justifying their bias with the false assumption that women are in greater need of their attention. If you have better way of dealing with that justification then please share it or shut up.

  18. “She then blamed the lack of funding on feminism. Of course.”

    No she didn’t. Every time she talks about what happened, she puts the blame firmly on the male benefactors who donated generously for women but refused to donate when the funds would go to men.

  19. “She then blamed the lack of funding on feminism. Of course.”

    When Erin Pizzey (or any MRA) blames the lack of funding for men’s shelters on feminism, it’s not about the shelter she tried to open back then, it’s about now, with laws that either don’t guarantee/mandate or forbid funding to those shelters.

  20. Saint Cynisism:
    Yes, because nothing establishes the moral high ground like posing as a victim of sexual assault….
    Posing? So men are not the victims of sexual assault?

    …creating a hashtag full of ridiculously sexist thoughts…
    There was sexism mixed in that hastag but unless you have a copy of every single tweet that used that tag I’m gonna have to challenge the claim that it was full of sexist thoughts.

    I really hope you actually do manage to help more people than you’ve undoubtedly hurt with this ridiculous stunt.
    So, who was undoubtedly hurt with a twitter hashtag?

    Chris Miller:
    Schala, the reason there isn’t more support for male domestic abuse victims is pretty simple. Men haven’t set them up.
    Agreed. But from what I’m understanding if talking about male victims hurts women then how much harm would befall women if men started setting them up?

    adi:
    I challenge any feminist here to a debate where I take the position that women are not oppressed and men’s issues are altogether significantly more serious than women’s issues.
    No need for that. The point isn’t to try to figure out who is oppressed or who has it worse. The point to try to get help to anyone that needs it and make sure that those aren’t getting help aren’t being denied it.

    Siofra:
    Well, I believe in equality. So if misandrists can troll feminist media…we can do the same back. Everyone gets to play, darling.
    Cool at least you acknowledge that feminists do engage in trolling. But at least you aren’t trying to say “they started it first!”.

    As for all this hashtag business I offered up a different tag called #menarespeakingup to a feminist that I ended up getting into a one on one with during the #ineedmasculism fiasco. Her response that even that tag is bad because “it implies that men’s voices have been silenced when they have not and it serves to only distract from the issues and to diminish the voices of women”.

    Seriously are women so horribly oppressed that a twitter hashtag silences them? But it’s the harms that men suffer that’s considered a first world problem?

    Funny thing is if all the feminists that got on in trolling that tag really were on board with the issues that were coming in in that tag they would have at the very least said something like “I don’t like the tag but agree with the issues”. No instead they spent the day shouting childish insults and trying to bury concern for men.

  21. Chris Miller said…
    Schala, the reason there isn’t more support for male domestic abuse victims is pretty simple. Men haven’t set them up. There is no governing body who decides which victims are allowed support services. Women, usually women who have been affected by domestic violence, worked extremely hard and against a lot of pressure to set up shelters and services for other women, and quite a few have lost their lives for it. Men haven’t put in that work.

    I guarantee there were men involved in the creation of virtually all those services. The rape crisis service in my town recently farewelled a board member who had been with them since their creation more than twenty five years ago. She went to great lengths to praise the “selfless” men who were instrumental in that service’s origin and that of the broader network even though it had originally only served females. And as TB pointed out it’s often been the men involved in those settings who prevented boys and men from accessing the services.

    It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter. (Though bearing in mind that victims of same-sex violence are likely to feel discomfort/unsafe either way, unfortunately, which is a problem no one’s found a solution to yet.)

    Only for those who prefer a system of apartheid for victims. Only for those who are not focused on finding real strategies for prevention. Only for those who put the furtherance of political ideology ahead of the welfare of victims.

  22. Saint Cynicism said…
    And fine, so claiming you were the victim of sexual assault is one of the few things you weren’t lying about.

    I’m not interested in engaging with this individual or consuming any more of their words. I’m hoping somebody can enlighten me as to whether they claim to be a feminist. The willingness to unilaterally re-write somebody else’s history certainly suggests it.

  23. ToySoldier, you did here exactly what that hashtag accomplished – flushed them out of the bushes ot show their true colors. Here you see all the denialism and rape apology about male victims on display, all the denial of institutional barriers to male DV and rape victims. It’s all here in this thread. Well done!

  24. Oh don’t worry about a little thing like being exposed for the trolling hypocrits they are Ginkgo. They have already run their public relations and bragged about how brilliantly they trolled the tag. Yes it’s true that most of them ignored the chance to find common ground and chose to act like a bunch of unruly children but they won’t see it as that. They will see it as a proud moment where they protected the voices of women…..by flooding twitter to attack people that were trying to show concern for men.

  25. @ Chris Miller:

    Schala, the reason there isn’t more support for male domestic abuse victims is pretty simple. Men haven’t set them up. There is no governing body who decides which victims are allowed support services.

    The United States Government, in 1994, passed a law called the Violence Against Women Act, which said only men can be abusers and only women can be abusers. It was co-created and widely supported by feminists. It expired at the end of last year.

    Laws about domestic violence in the US and UK basically amount to “assume the man is the abuser. Even if the woman hits first, it’s in preemptive self-defense.” Which means that men are usually arrested even when they are the victims.

    http://www.stopvaw.org/determining_the_predominant_aggressor

    Men who are being abused by their wife are advised by lawyers not to leave the house if they want a divorce, because that would be “abandonment” on their part, and pretty much give the wife the kids. Not that men haven’t struggled to get their children away from abusive women.

    Also, you’re victim blaming.

    Women, usually women who have been affected by domestic violence, worked extremely hard and against a lot of pressure to set up shelters and services for other women, and quite a few have lost their lives for it. Men haven’t put in that work.

    Actually, men have been affected too, and have faced even more resistance. Erin Pizzey, who founded the UK’s first women’s shelter, said that the same millionaire men who donated to women’s shelters were entirely unwilling to donate to men’s. She and her family and publisher faced death threats for pointing out women can and do lie about abuse, and saying men should be supported as well. Someone killed her dog. She had to leave the UK for a time.

    A quick Google finds me nothing about women being killed setting up DV shelters. The reason men can’t put in that work is because society doesn’t even acknowledge male abuse exists, or sometimes even says he deserves it.

    It would be completely inappropriate for a woman to start one for the same reason it would be inappropriate for a man to run a women’s shelter. (Though bearing in mind that victims of same-sex violence are likely to feel discomfort/unsafe either way, unfortunately, which is a problem no one’s found a solution to yet.)

    You’re assuming primarily men abuse women. Rates of lesbian abuse range from a third to 90%, and abuse is often mutual. When “domestic abuse shelters” really means, by default, “women’s domestic abuse shelters”, something is horribly wrong. It’s not like feminism is bothering to do anything about it. Not to mention that many women lie about being abused. Some are even abusers themselves.

  26. “The United States Government, in 1994, passed a law called the Violence Against Women Act, which said only men can be abusers and only women can be abusers[sic]. It was co-created and widely supported by feminists. It expired at the end of last year.”

    Mmmm… I feel the need to point out that that was changed in 2005 to make it so that any gender can receive funding.

    I mean, it was still widely supported before then, and even up until it expired it still had major sexism issues (that I won’t get into here), and that all of it doesn’t matter if the person you’re talking to thinks it was women-only but also that that’s a good thing… but, y’know, credit where credit is due.

  27. You morons do realise by continuing to post your hateful, ill-informed bullshit in the comments you’re continuing to play right into it? There really is no better troll bait than raging radscum. The reason behind there being a men’s rights movement is because, believe it or not, men genuinely do face legal and social disadvantages which are unique to them, you know, kind of like women do (less so in the legal part). The movement actually has nothing to do with the friendzone or paying for dates or other petty shit like that, and if you’re too self-absorbed to appreciate that someone else might suffer from society’s contradictions and rigid gender roles (not necessarily created by ‘the patriarchy’) then that’s your own fucking problem.

  28. “Mmmm… I feel the need to point out that that was changed in 2005 to make it so that any gender can receive funding.”

    http://www.mediaradar.org/vawa_must_help_men_too.php

    De jure. Not de facto.

    It was still legal for any shelter to exclude men, IIRC. Most did. There were also concerns about the lack of accountability. And changes to funding did nothing to improve the discriminatory laws and police polices.

  29. Karen might be surprised to learn how many cis and trans women are for true equality, meaning helping men also, not just hoping trickle-down economics will (like Reagan and his tax cuts, promising the middle class and the poor that it would pay off in jobs).

    Trans women, especially, have seen it from both sides, and can see how lopsided the views about who merits help are. Men have been socialized to see it as part of their worth as people to not ask for help, while women have been socialized to see it as just part of “what happens / what is normal” to be routinely helped or have people concerned over their welfare.

    Trans women have seen the “I don’t care one bit about you” attitude, and the “You poor little thing” attitude, and of course, the attitude that trans women are not “real” women, and thus merit the “don’t care” attitude, because male privilege.

    End the apartheid of compassion and empathy. Everyone deserves help and fairness, regardless of what bits they were born with.

  30. Plasma, the language is gender neutral, but as far as I can tell the funding is not. I do not know of any shelters or services for men that receive VAWA funding. The only thing I could find that was set aside for men was domestic violence prevention funding. Even the Senate’s proposed changes were done only to help gay men, not straight men. Gender neutral language is little more than lip service if no money actually goes to help male victims.

  31. Aren’t men just too adorable? They’re so cute when they pout.

    Yes, Karen. I suppose it is cute when men who need help because they were abused or raped complain that no one takes them seriously. Comments like yours are one the many reasons why some people think feminists support violence against men. If you really wanted to make a point, you should take men’s complaints and issues seriously.

  32. I can just imagine Karen talking to her son.” Shhh honey, stop pouting, Im talking to your sister first, I will maybe get to you later.”

  33. >I need Masculism because I am not a monster for not giving two shits about your “struggle”

    Sweetie, if you don’t care about women then don’t expect women to care about you. You’re not entitled to respect just because you’re male. Sorry to inform you.

  34. Csechrist, that works in reverse. If you do not care about men then do not expect men to care about you. You are not entitled to respect just because you are female. Sorry to inform you.

    Of course, the better person treats all with respect whether they receive it in return or not. I guess you are not that type of person.

  35. Then where are the DV shelters for men?

    You want DV shelters for men, then build them. Why don’t you men’s activists get off the couch and do something, you know, active, like organizing and building shelters for all those abused men out there? After all, it was women, not men, who built the first DV shelters for women. Why should we have to build yours, too?

    Incidentally, several years ago there was a men’s DV shelter in Washington DC, but it was shut down because–surprise, surprise–it wasn’t being used. Go figure. 

  36. You want DV shelters for men, then build them. Why don’t you men’s activists get off the couch and do something, you know, active, like organizing and building shelters for all those abused men out there?

    How do you know that they have not? Many feminists are quick to make this argument, but not so quick to do the research and see the responses people get when they try to open shelters and centers for men.

    After all, it was women, not men, who built the first DV shelters for women. Why should we have to build yours, too?

    Actually, men were involved in the process, particularly when it came to getting government funding. That is another fact many feminists conveniently forget. As for why feminists should help male survivors, they should because they claim they oppose all abuse. How can you oppose all abuse and leaves abused people out in the cold with no help? More so, it behooves feminists to help those men since they have no problem asking for their money. Likewise, any services that receive federal and state funding are required by law not to discriminate based on sex.

    Incidentally, several years ago there was a men’s DV shelter in Washington DC, but it was shut down because–surprise, surprise–it wasn’t being used. Go figure.

    And do you have any idea why it was not used? How well was it funded? How well was it advertised? Did the director of the shelter do any outreach to let men know there was a space for them? How many beds did it offer? Where was it located? Was it hard to get to? Did it have any connections with local law enforcement so that men who reported abuse could be sent there? I ask because when other shelters for men have opened, they have had little trouble finding men to fill the beds.

  37. Csechrist, that works in reverse. If you do not care about men then do not expect men to care about you. You are not entitled to respect just because you are female. Sorry to inform you.

    LOL. How long did it take you to come up with that clever response? But seriously, I know I’m not entitled to respect because I am female. I am, however, entitled to respect because I am human, and sadly, far too many men do not view women as human. 

    Of course, the better person treats all with respect whether they receive it in return or not. I guess you are not that type of person.

    I guess not, then, because I don’t respect anyone who thinks that I am beneath men. 

  38. I am, however, entitled to respect because I am human, and sadly, far too many men do not view women as human.

    Far too many women do not view men as human. Honestly, are you unaware that many people think the opposite sex is beneath them? As for you being entitled to respect because you are human, your species has nothing to do with whether you deserve respect.

    I guess not, then, because I don’t respect anyone who thinks that I am beneath men.

    Ironically, your attitudes about men may be the reason why you seem to find men not respecting you.

  39. Actually, men were involved in the process, particularly when it came to getting government funding.

    That couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that most bigwigs in government back then were men, could it? As for the idea for starting women’s shelters in the first place, that was all women’s. Most men back then thought abused women deserved what they got and should just shut up and take it. In fact, many men did not believe that abuse was a legitimate reason for a woman to leave her husband. She was his property for him to do with as he pleased. And from reading men’s rights blogs, I can see that that hateful sentiment hasn’t changed much over the years. 

    As for why feminists should help male survivors, they should because they claim they oppose all abuse.

    …unlike men’s activists who don’t give a shit about abused women. Instead of sympathizing with her, they blame the woman for “provoking” her abuser. Why, if only she had been a good little wifey and obeyed her master properly, he wouldn’t have felt compelled to put her in her place. Or they say that the woman should “just leave”. How stupid of her to stay with an abusive man, despite the fact that he has likely alienated her from her friends and family to the point where she has no place else to turn. Either way, it’s always the woman’s fault. The man is never responsible for his actions. 

    Men’s activists blatantly care only about other men. Men are the better sex, they argue, and as such they deserve more rights and privileges than women do. 

    More so, it behooves feminists to help those men since they have no problem asking for their money.

    Oh goody, the hackneyed women-are-gold-diggers stereotype. You men’s activists sure are a clever bunch.

    I ask because when other shelters for men have opened, they have had little trouble finding men to fill the beds.

    What a minute, didn’t you claim in your post that nobody wants to open shelters for men because supposedly nobody takes men seriously, or something? And now all of a sudden men’s shelters are overflowing with victims? Which is it, sweetheart?

    I stand by my assertion: If you want shelters for men, then go out and build them. Stop complaining about how women won’t do it for you. Instead of yammering on the internet about how awful and worthless women are, get off your fucking ass and do something useful and productive. Be a real activist, not an armchair activist.

  40. Far too many women do not view men as human. Honestly, are you unaware that many people think the opposite sex is beneath them?

    Sure, there are individual men and women who hate the opposite sex because of past bad experiences, or whatever the case may be. But historically it has been women, not men, who have been looked down on and discredited because of their sex. It has been women, not men, who have had their opportunities in life limited because of ignorant stereotypes. It has been women, not men, whose very humanity has been debated. 

    Ironically, your attitudes about men may be the reason why you seem to find men not respecting you.

    I have a feeling your idea of having a positive attitude towards men involves keeping my lips firmly planted on their asses at all times. Sorry, plastic toy soldier, but I don’t kiss men’s asses, or anyone’s for that matter. I have a perfectly healthy attitude towards men in general, just not towards male supremacists. And when did I ever say that I don’t find men respecting me? Some men may not respect me, but once again, that’s because they have a sense of superiority over me. But the men who matter, the men I love and care about, do respect me. 

  41. @csechrist…

    “I guess not, then, because I don’t respect anyone who thinks that I am beneath men. ”

    This from somebody who previously addressed their target as “Sweetie”. It seems you don’t actually respect anybody including yourself.

    @TS…

    Aren’t these folk bizarre? They are standard bearers for equality and diversity and inclusion. They are the ultimate progressives. They will assure you of this themselves. Loudly and very condescendingly I’m sure.

  42. That couldn’t have anything to do with the fact that most bigwigs in government back then were men, could it?

    That would not negate the fact that men played a major role in opening shelters for women.

    Most men back then thought abused women deserved what they got and should just shut up and take it.

    I would suspect if that view were true, most women would have felt the same way.

    …unlike men’s activists who don’t give a shit about abused women. Instead of sympathizing with her, they blame the woman for “provoking” her abuser.

    That is a very poor strawman argument. If you are going to use such arguments, you must come something better. Most men’s rights activists have no problem with abused women getting help. Their complaint, as well as mine, is that men who seek help are often turned away or accused of being abusers. Wanting to help men is not the same as not wanting to help women. It would do feminists well to learn that.

    Men’s activists blatantly care only about other men. Men are the better sex, they argue, and as such they deserve more rights and privileges than women do.

    Which prominent men’s rights activists argue that men are the better sex and deserve more rights and privileges than women do?

    Oh goody, the hackneyed women-are-gold-diggers stereotype.

    No, it is practical argument. If I demand that you pay to build a school I will attend, then it is only fair that I support a school for you. To ask for your money to help me and then turn a blind eye to your needs would be quite unethical.

    What a minute, didn’t you claim in your post that nobody wants to open shelters for men because supposedly nobody takes men seriously, or something? And now all of a sudden men’s shelters are overflowing with victims? Which is it, sweetheart?

    I never said there were no men’s shelters, and noting that few people are willing to fund for them does not mean no shelters have managed to get funding. However, getting that funding, particularly government funding, tends to be an uphill battle that prompts little, if any, support from women’s shelters or feminists.

    Instead of yammering on the internet about how awful and worthless women are, get off your fucking ass and do something useful and productive. Be a real activist, not an armchair activist.

    Again, that is a very poor strawman, and very tired feminist rant. You have no idea what I do with my time or what services I have helped create or support. Instead of yammering on the internet about how awful and worthless I am, do something useful and productive. Be a real activist and volunteer at a women’s shelter or rape center. Granted, you will likely not help male victims, but it will at least give you something to do.

    It has been women, not men, who have had their opportunities in life limited because of ignorant stereotypes. It has been women, not men, whose very humanity has been debated.

    Both sexes have had their opportunities limited by stereotypes. Likewise, both sexes have had their usefulness questioned at various points in history. I do not think anyone has honestly argued that women are not human. But if you have an example of that, I will correct myself.

    I have a feeling your idea of having a positive attitude towards men involves keeping my lips firmly planted on their asses at all times.

    As long as you not putting your lips on a child, I could not care less where you put your lips. I understand that feminists like you need a boogeyman to argue with, but I must inform you that I uninterested in playing that role.

    I do think you have a most unhealthy attitude in general, and specifically towards men. There is nothing I can do to change that because you seem set in your ways. I will say that most men are like me and do not take people like you that seriously. So while I am sure you will run this comment by a bunch of feminists who will pat you on the back, most people will simply see you as someone who came here to pitch a fit with someone who writes a benign blog about male survivors of abuse.

  43. Karen, is it cute when women pout? Are you here to troll or do you believe men have legitimate issues of concern?

    https://twitter.com/search/%23TellAFeministThankYou

    Look what I found today. I’m thankful for the egalitarians but the extremists need to go away. I am thankful for egalitarian feminists and MRA’s, and hate the extremists on both sides. But look at how many people are positively generalizing about feminism yet to negatively generalize about feminism is bad…

  44. That not negate the fact that men played a major role in opening shelters for women.

    Once again, it was mostly women who had a hand in opening shelters for women. Men’s role in that was anything but major. 

    I would suspect if that view were true, most women would have felt the same way.

    Felt the same way about what? What are you talking about?

    That is a very poor strawman argument. If you are going to use such arguments, you must come something better. Most men’s rights activists have no problem with abused women getting help. Their complaint, as well as mine, is that men who seek help are often turned away or accused of being abusers. Wanting to help men is not the same as not wanting to help women. It would do feminists well to learn that.

    No, it’s an argument grounded in fact. Some men’s activists may advocate for female victims as well as male, but most do not. The fact that the VAWA is under attack is testament to that. I think it would do you well to know what your fellow men’s activists are about. 

    Which prominent men’s rights activists argue that men are the better sex and deserve more rights and privileges than women do?

    Paul Elam, for one (since he’s the only “prominent” men’s activist I know of). He’s the delightful fellow who proposed instituting a “Bash a Bitch” day.
    And pretty much every other men’s “activist” whose literature I have ever read. 

    No, it is practical argument.

    No, it really isn’t. 

    I never said there were no men’s shelters, and noting that few people are willing to fund for them does not mean no shelters have managed to get funding. However, getting that funding, particularly government funding, tends to be an uphill battle that prompts little, if any, support from women’s shelters or feminists.

    Once again, why do you need women’s support to build shelters for men? Contrary to popular MRA belief, feminists do not run the government, so I don’t know why you think we have a hand in whether men’s shelters get built or not. When feminists built the first women’s shelters, they didn’t have government funding, either. It was strictly a grassroots project. Can’t you intellectually superior men do the same? 

    Again, that is a very poor strawman, and very tired feminist rant. You have no idea what I do with my time or what services I have helped create or support. Instead of yammering on the internet about how awful and worthless I am, do something useful and productive. Be a real activist and volunteer at a women’s shelter or rape center. Granted, you will likely not help male victims, but it will at least give you something to do.

    You keep using the word strawman, but I don’t think you know what it means. Also, I like how you keep recycling what I say in your responses. Can’t you think of anything original? And for what it’s worth, I have done volunteer work, not for women’s shelters, but for homeless shelters and other organizations where all people are served, not just women. 

    I do not think anyone has honestly argued that women are not human. But if you have an example of that, I will correct myself.

    There have been many instances of religious bigots (and bigots in general) arguing whether women should be considered human. But as just one example: “In the year 585 in eastern France, 43 Catholic bishops and 20 men who were representing bishops held a debate at the Council of Macon: “Are Women Human?”  After many lengthy arguments, a vote was taken.  The results were 32, yes; 31, no.  They declared women human by one vote.” (The Humanist)

    As long as you not putting your lips on a child, I could not care less where you put your lips. I understand that feminists like you need a boogeyman to argue with, but I must inform you that I uninterested in playing that role.

    As long as I don’t put my lips on a child? LOL, wut? Are you trying to project your gender’s propensity for pedophilia on me? (Okay, that was a low blow, I admit. But hey, men use stereotypes against women all the time, so bite me.)

    I do think you have a most unhealthy attitude in general, and specifically towards men. There is nothing I can do to change that because you seem set in your ways.

    With all due respect, I act towards people how they act towards me. If you show me contempt then I’ll show you contempt. And I have received nothing but contempt from men’s activists and other male supremacists. When I first became interested in feminism, I read a lot of men’s rights blogs because I do believe that equality should go both ways. Sadly, instead of an objective analysis of men’s issues, most of what I got were hateful diatribes against women (sorry, I mean “females”). I was told how inherently ugly, stupid, evil, and worthless we are. How everything wrong with the world is our fault and how everything good in the world is because of men. How we shouldn’t have careers because we’d be taking jobs away from more-deserving men. How if we don’t work and let our husbands support us, we’re gold diggers. How we shouldn’t be allowed to have a say in the policies that affect our lives. How we should be raped and beaten and while we’re at it to make them a sandwich. I could go on and on, but the basic gist of men’s rights is that men can do no wrong and women can do nothing right. Yes, I know that not all MRAs are like that, but most of them are. Go to any major “men’s rights” site (e.g. AVfM, Men’s Rights on Reddit) and you’ll see that they’re more like anti-woman hate sites than men’s rights sites. Those sites are the reason women like me don’t take your movement seriously. They make the “men’s movement” seem like nothing more than a hate movement. It is because of their hateful attitudes toward women that I have no sympathy for their “cause”. 

    Like I said, I have a perfectly healthy attitude towards men in general. Just because I won’t let men get away with thinking they are better than me doesn’t mean I don’t respect them. But don’t think that men have a right to act like women are pieces of shit and that women don’t have a right to reciprocate the feeling. If you want “true equality”, then expect to get what you dish out. 

    I will say that most men are like me and do not take people like you that seriously.

    LOL. Men not taking women seriously. What. A. Surprise. 
     

    So while I am sure you will run this comment by a bunch of feminists who will pat you on the back, most people will simply see you as someone who came here to pitch a fit with someone who writes a benign blog about male survivors of abuse.

     

    LOL, I don’t take our little convo seriously enough to share it with others. 

  45. This from somebody who previously addressed their target as “Sweetie”. It seems you don’t actually respect anybody including yourself.

    I’m just letting y’all know how it feels to be condescended to. We women get called “sweetie” all the time. But that’s okay, isn’t it?

  46. “I’m just letting y’all know how it feels to be condescended to. We women get called “sweetie” all the time. But that’s okay, isn’t it?”

    Except you’re being condescending about more than just using “sweetie”, you’re basically justifying the apartheid of compassion from feminist organizations (ignoring all male victims, ignoring all female victims of female perps), which has been mostly done in the name of ideology (Duluth model of “patriarchal ‘male privilege’ violence” as the unique motive of DV, for example).

    There is no reason to say “men have it made” just because some people (the 1%) who have penises are leading an oligarchy. Everyone else, male and female, is suffering. No reason to ignore all the males.

  47. Pull the other one csechrist. The folk in my world don’t use infantile language of that sort .

  48. I can just imagine Karen talking to her son.” Shhh honey, stop pouting, Im talking to your sister first, I will maybe get to you later.”

    LOL. If that actually happens, then her son will have an inkling of what girls routinely put up with from their fathers who blatantly favor their brothers because they are boys. 🙂

  49. Pull the other one csechrist. The folk in my world don’t use infantile language of that sort .

    “Pull the other one”? What does that even mean? And the “folk” (I assume you mean men) in your world don’t use infantile language of that sort? Really? Is that why they like to call me “schnookums” in an attempt to discredit me?

  50. Once again, it was mostly women who had a hand in opening shelters for women. Men’s role in that was anything but major.

    Except for men funding, supporting, and passing legislation to help create those shelters.

    Some men’s activists may advocate for female victims as well as male, but most do not. The fact that the VAWA is under attack is testament to that.

    No, their opposition to VAWA is because of how VAWA ignores male victims of domestic violence. Even with recent changes, there is no consideration for male victims. The recent changes focused on GLBT victims, and that is the only direct inclusion of male victims, yet its focus is on gay men, as if no straight men are victims.

    Paul Elam, for one (since he’s the only “prominent” men’s activist I know of).

    Do not just give a name; give an example of him stating that men are better than women and deserve more rights and privileges.Once again, why do you need women’s support to build shelters for men?

    The shelters should provide assistance to all who need it, not only because they receive government funding and are therefore legally required not to discriminate based on sex, but also because those running the shelters claim to oppose all violence. How can you oppose all violence and yet refuse to help certain types of victims?

    Also, I like how you keep recycling what I say in your responses.

    That is because your comments read like you are projecting your own opinions onto to others. As for the other matter, when you make up an argument that no one actually holds and the proceed to attack it, as you have done several times here, that is a strawman. You seem to like using them, but you are not good at it.

    There have been many instances of religious bigots (and bigots in general) arguing whether women should be considered human.

    I stand corrected, although I find it funny that you had to dredge up a 1,428-year-old example.

    Are you trying to project your gender’s propensity for pedophilia on me?

    Women are responsible for most child abuse and significant portion of sexual abuse against children, particularly boys, so pedophilia is hardly my sex’s problem.

    With all due respect, I act towards people how they act towards me.

    Judging by your comments here, I doubt that is true.

    I was told how inherently ugly, stupid, evil, and worthless we are. How everything wrong with the world is our fault and how everything good in the world is because of men.

    You realize that is essentially the feminist message to men, right? It is stupid to blame an entire group of people for all your problems, however, it is hypocritical to do such a stupid thing and then complain when someone does it back to you.

    Those sites are the reason women like me don’t take your movement seriously. They make the “men’s movement” seem like nothing more than a hate movement.

    AVfM has the same amount of hate content as the most popular feminist blogs. Feministe, Feministing, Jezebel, Salon, and XX all run thinly veiled anti-male pieces in between pieces meant to appeal to their base. That is the nature of ideological blogs. I am not saying your complaint is without merit, just that it is typical of very political spaces.

    I’m just letting y’all know how it feels to be condescended to. We women get called “sweetie” all the time. But that’s okay, isn’t it?

    It would be if someone here had been condescending towards you. To randomly come to a blog and condescend to those who did nothing to you just makes you look like an ass.

  51. “LOL. If that actually happens, then her son will have an inkling of what girls routinely put up with from their fathers who blatantly favor their brothers because they are boys.”

    He’ll also have an inkling of how his mother treats him already (less than his sister), how his teachers treat him (boys are not quiet, boys are not docile, boys are stupid, boys are unable to read as good as girls, boys are violent, boys are perverts). With of course, a good dose of Victorianism from society as a whole (girls and women are more moral, less evil by biology inherently, more compassionate, more empathetic, more caring, more nurturing, and would never ever start wars without men – they’d also probably manage funds and lead companies ‘better’ than the men doing that job now, because of their sex alone).

    Heck, much of the *positive* stereotypes about men involve being more able to be an asshole (be like Chef Ramsey). Even those could hurt a young boy’s desire “to do the right thing”, he’s outright told it makes him “not-a-boy” (and also, not a girl, you can’t opt out – he simply becomes not-human), nice guys are told they’re too tame, too docile, too unambitious…too nice. So sure, if you raise boys telling them that they’re either assholes, or losers, they might pick asshole more (there’s more reward), same with telling girls they’re either vain and superficial to the 11, or losers, they might pick vain and superficial, just because it seems the lesser evil.

  52. Here’s something:

    http://www.genderratic.com/p/2594/its-shit-like-this-feminists-this-is-why-male-rape-survivors-dont-come-forward-or-gendered-victim-blaming/

    James Landrith got told by The Lesbian Mafia (that’s the name of the site) that his rape was not rape, that he didn’t experience any trauma, that he didn’t feel threatened, that he could have fought off his abuser and that his rape was actually at best sexual assault, because he was not penetrated (he was made to penetrate against his will, while asleep – with a woman he did not consent to having any kind of intimacy with, someone who also threatened blackmail should he attempt to stop or reveal the rape).

    These women need to be denounced and thrown off feminism in a worse way than typical egalitarians (people who care about men enough to advocate for them, as well as women) get treated by mainstream feminism. Heck some haters like Greer, Jeffreys, Daly and Raymond are accepted as feminists, just “different feminism than mine”, rather than excommunicated for their hatefulness regarding men and trans people (especially trans and intersex women, but trans and intersex men are also affected by the misgendering, calls for being gender traitors and deluded). Those kind of people have no place in a movement for equality.

  53. “Feministe, Feministing, Jezebel, Salon, and XX all run thinly veiled anti-male pieces in between pieces meant to appeal to their base. ”
    From what I’ve seen, Feministe and Feministing have a lower level of crap content that Jezebel or AVfM. Now to be fair because of that perception I’ve seen a lot less of Jezebel and AVfM, AND this is in retrospect, so I may have just gotten a bad sample. Not to say that feministing or feministe are completely free of junk.

  54. Feministe won’t even admit that men can have it hard as men qua men (ie not because they’re gay, or black, or short).

    And Feministing has a sad record on trans issues, from trans feminists’s mouth themselves.

  55. I usually dont post, but some things need to be corrected.

    csechrist wrote: “No, it’s an argument grounded in fact. Some men’s activists may advocate for female victims as well as male, but most do not. The fact that the VAWA is under attack is testament to that. I think it would do you well to know what your fellow men’s activists are about.”

    Unless there has been a survey, questionnaire or some other quantiative research being done on men’s activists opinions – it is not “fact” or even a proper argumentative point because a correlation does not mean causation.

  56. “Paul Elam, for one (since he’s the only “prominent” men’s activist I know of). He’s the delightful fellow who proposed instituting a “Bash a Bitch” day.
    And pretty much every other men’s “activist” whose literature I have ever read. ”
    Hello, another strawman. You mean a sarcastic piece in response to Jezebel’s article on their editors talking about how they abused their boyfriends in a dismissive way? If you had bothered to read the article you’d realize Paul doesn’t want people being bashed

    “That’s it. In the name of equality and fairness, I am proclaiming October to be Bash a Violent Bitch Month.”
    Then read down to this part
    “You know, we used to have a name for people who only hit those that they knew wouldn’t fight back.

    Bullies.

    And we all know that bullies are cowards. Put a hurting on one and they go find someone else to pick on every time. It’s what cowards do.

    Now, am I serious about this?

    No.”

    And then a part saying it’s ok to DEFEND yourself but a better option is to dump her and move on. Hardly the violent man you talk about, I think most of what Paul says is probably just snark along with utter frustration of males being ignored as victims of DV, etc. How many prominent MRA’s have written a SCUM manifesto-type book?

    “Are you trying to project your gender’s propensity for pedophilia on me?”
    Like how women are the most likely to kill a child (not abortion)? Ooo I can play your game too! What does it accomplish?

    “And I have received nothing but contempt from men’s activists and other male supremacists. ”
    Problem is many of the MRA’s have recieved contempt from many feminists before those feminists even knew what the MRA’s want. I constantly see STRAWMRA positions talked about on mainstream feminist websites, they generalize heaps about MRA’s whilst simultaneously complaining that MRA’s generalize about feminism. It’s utter hypocrisy. The MRA vs Feminism battles that go on are annoying as hell because deep down both have very similar goals in regards to equality, both have extremists fucking shit up although I will admit only one group has any political power (feminists) and considering the duluth model was brought in I do believe at times some feminist-inspiring laws really fucking suck.

    “I’m just letting y’all know how it feels to be condescended to. We women get called “sweetie” all the time. But that’s okay, isn’t it?”
    Generalization, and not all “sweeties” are condescending. Did anyone say it was ok to condescend? You’re acting rude because other people have been rude to you to try point out that people can be rude? Huh? Not all men or women act the same way so what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

    “Those sites are the reason women like me don’t take your movement seriously. They make the “men’s movement” seem like nothing more than a hate movement.”
    Like the radfemhub, Jezebel, etc? Surely using your logic they would make the feminist movement seem like nothing more than a hate movement?

    Feministe did some rape apology, zomg feminism is a hatemovement!1121211. (sarcasm, though they did the rape apology)

  57. Jezebel: They have an article about hitting boyfriends – all made up to be a big laugh. One of their editor (Erin Gloria Ryan) apparently believes that the problem of statutory rape of young boys by female teachers would go away if the teacher’s were less hot (which can only be read as putting the blame on all the male victims). A man’s rape (the german case where the man was illegally detained by a woman and threatened to have sex with her) with was called “having sex” the victim was said to be “sexhausted” and it was pointed out that the sex was initially consensual. The author also mused that the man wouldn’t have any media calling him a slut (apparently sexhausted is ok) and questioning the victim because the sex was initially consensual (which is kind of ironic considering that the author himself wrote “By all accounts, however, the initial hook-up was consensual”). Whether a male victim will be victim-blamed due to clothings, drinking, earlier sexual behaviour and so on is such a common comment when there is a case of a male victim that one could say that “at least female victims won’t hear that the sad part about their rape is that no-one is asking them what they wore and how much they had to drink”.

    Feministe and Feministing: As far as I can recall about* the only times these have brought up the issue of male rape is debating whether specific situations really are rape or not (apparently according to some there is no way a sleeping woman can give a signal that says it’s ok to fuck her while there apparently are some ways a sleeping man can give a signal that says it’s ok to fuck him). Feministe have undermined male consent by arguing that it’s ok to to not only question a man’s “no”, but also to vilify him (by calling him a misogynist) for saying “no” to certain sex-acts. The coercive aspect of this was not addressed. Commenters argued that calling a woman a misandrist for saying “no” was in no way the same thing.

    * On exception is the post where the author wants to have her cake and eat it too (“Rape is absolutely a gendered crime, but the act of rape itself doesn’t necessarily follow those rules”). Toysoldier addresses that article here: https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/youre-not-helping-v11/
    I also made some comments on that article at Feministing under the nick “T.A.O.”.

  58. I.. uhh… I was back just to say that, when I said VAWA was changed in 2005 so that anyone can get funding, I actually meant that they /can/ get funding, and that one of the massive problems with it is that it doesn’t say everyone /must/ get funding. In other words, places can still discriminate all they want and VAWA doesn’t care. It’s just that, before, a company literally couldn’t fund mostly men or they’d get their funding pulled.

    But now I see you’ve gotten into a very different (and somewhat silly) argument with someone who thinks people shouldn’t have to help out people of a different demographic. Okay.

    Also, did anyone else spot where csechrist said:

    “Paul Elam, for one (since he’s the only “prominent” men’s activist I know of).”
    “When I first became interested in feminism, I read a lot of men’s rights blogs because I do believe that equality should go both ways.”

    I’m just saying, one of these has to be a lie.

  59. Also, did anyone else spot where csechrist said:

    “Paul Elam, for one (since he’s the only “prominent” men’s activist I know of).”
    “When I first became interested in feminism, I read a lot of men’s rights blogs because I do believe that equality should go both ways.”

    I’m just saying, one of these has to be a lie.

    Plasma, I caught that, but I decided to let it slide because it is so obviously contradictory that no one would take it seriously.

  60. Feminists:

    Opposed gender neutral rape laws that explicitly include forced envelopment because “men will lie about rape.” Not 8% or even 40% of men will lie about rape, ALL MEN WILL LIE ABOUT RAPE. There are feminists who fight against making the rape of men illegal because they believe all rape accusations by men against women will be false.

    Opposed a presumption of shared custody between father and mother upon divorce.

    Block male victims getting access to needed services.

    Promote male genital mutilation as a good thing.

    Don’t see violence against men as important as violence against women.

    Believe an ideology (feminist theory) that essentially casts men as innate, unchangeable sociopaths.

    Dominate academia yet refuse to recognize that they are the gender status quo. (There has never been a point in history where an underclass defined the overclass; feminist theory defines men. It DEFINES men and then it shames and silences men for saying “that doesn’t define me.”)

    I’d like to see someone point to a comparable track record among prominent MRAs.

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  62. Your pingback, I posted a comment on it. Not sure it will show so I’m reposting it here:

    I’d like to tell you this twitter hashtag was started by 4chan, as a trolling attempt (they were only half-serious), and EXPECTED to the tag to be “invaded” the way it has been. They succeeded apparently, it wasn’t a backfire for them, it was “as designed”, not a bug.

    “Since most MRAs are unreconstructed misogynists, their arguments easy to mock and debunk, why do feminists find them extremely exasperating nevertheless?”

    Okay, so when I get falsely identified as a MRA because I actually care about both men and women having victim services, both men and women having their roles expanded, both men and women having more rights, and the binary being weakened (I’m all for other identities, even if I identify within the binary, as a trans woman). When that happens, I’m being told I’m a unreconstructed misogynist?

    Lest you think I’m the exception, it’s the norm on feminist and feminist-leaning blogs to be called MRA, pretty much always as an insult, even when commenting on topics about men themselves, or on neutral topics. As long as you don’t toe the line, you’re evil apparently. Greer, Raymond, Daly and Jeffreys, marginalized somewhat as feminists – yet still recognized as feminists, not told they’re misogynists or anti-equality for their positions.

    “And why, when they are so clearly wrong about their position in relation to power and privilege, is their anger clearly so real and deeply felt?”

    Privilege is bi-directional in the realm of gender, with privileges afforded in certain domains and withheld in others, depending on which gender you’re perceived to be. The weight of the privileges and disprivileges depends on what you value about life.

    Female privileges will favor safety, security, help services and nurturing roles (being seen as harmless has perks when you don’t want to intimidate), as well as quality of life generally.

    Male privileges will favor independence (in a fly or die way), ambition and assertiveness (or you get walked all over) where you can, potentially and possibly, hit the sky with more ease (at least you were raised in a way possibly favoring it, not that everyone is the type to want it).

    As such, you could find your side’s privilege utterly useless or getting in your way (you don’t want to be seen as harmless when in the army or as police), or helping you. Depends. What feminism was objecting to was the limitations caused by this, and I completely agree. Except it only looked at male privileges, and completely ignored female privileges, even used them as leverage to get services and votes for their stuff (the whole “protect women and children” trope is what made DV services so easy to get…but for women only).

    A fair look would want to reduce disadvantages on both sides, so that everyone gets help, people aren’t presumed helpless or violent based on sex, competent or too frail and the likes. Feminism hasn’t done that in practice (even if it says it goes for equality).

    “By far the greatest concern amongst MRAs appears to be father’s rights. Whilst there is truth in their argument that mothers are favoured in custody cases, based on a belief that women are natural caregivers, they fail to recognise is this is derived from the very same ideology that posits that men and women belong in separate spheres, with men being fundamentally more suited to public life.”

    100 years ago, men got custody immediately and instantly, no questions asked. They were the better parents because money. That’s patriarchy for you.

    Today is something different. And feminist groups (like NOW) are opposing starting from a 50/50 presumption of custody, only modifying such arrangement if there is abuse. Decide wether you want to fight the “mothers are best” or to agree with it, but pick one side.

    Lastly, I don’t think you’ll convince men to join your fight …against men (patriarchy) except the naive (who believe this is a real fight for true equality) and the self-hating (who think maleness deserves hatred) men.

    Couching the oligarchy (the 1%) in terms other than “patriarchy” might be a good start. Obama is a man, and he’s black. Has he made the life of men and black people better since he’s there, while neglecting women and white people? I don’t think so. Him being a leader only makes people think the leader position might merit a male leader…but his positions don’t pander to male voters because of it (he doesn’t even throw them a bone, he chastised deadbeat dads on father’s day even).

  63. LOL. If that actually happens, then her son will have an inkling of what girls routinely put up with from their fathers who blatantly favor their brothers because they are boys(csechrist)

    If you would like you can ask my son and daughter whether or not that is true because its pretty obvious to me that you dont have children.

  64. Please be careful about generalizations. I am part of a feminist-leaning Facebook group that posted a link to this Jezebel article and asked what people thought of it. The majority agreed it would do nothing to help either side understand each other’s concerns and therefore wasn’t productive (from either party).

    Not all people who believe in equality (whether under the label of feminism or masculinism) mock each other on twitter. In fact, I hope most do not.

    Please don’t judge all members of a group as one “type” because some choose to act in a certain way.

  65. “Not all people who believe in equality (whether under the label of feminism or masculinism) mock each other on twitter. In fact, I hope most do not.”

    That’s probably true, but the loud voices, the convinced-to-do-something people of a movement, the activists…are often also the most extremists of a movement.

    So that explains why DV shelters developed a radical feminist perspective and are directed mostly by radfems as well.

    That most people believe equality should be attained, even most feminists, is moot, if those that make laws be passed, lobby for lopsided laws like VAWA and make it impossible for male victims to get funding, awareness or help at all are not for equality, then in practice, feminism is not.

    What feminism says it does is different from what feminism does concretely, and there lies the rub.

  66. Fredrick “Please don’t judge all members of a group as one “type” because some choose to act in a certain way.”

    It’s getting increasingly difficult to do so when those types are listened to and help usher in sexist one-sided laws like the now-defunct VAWA. It’s also difficult to be lured in by the “Feminism is for equality arguement” and then have those very same feminists turn around and criticise you for speaking your say or even relating a story that you’d think would unload mounds of support and understanding.

  67. Frederick, thanks for the comment. I can only base my judgement about the hashtag on what I saw feminists tweet. Most of the feminist comments on the hashtag were sarcastic, meanspirited, and sexist. While I am sure some feminists tweeted something positive or questioned some of those hostile tweets, I did not see any, and I followed the hashtag the entire weekend.

    I do not think all the feminists on Twitter represent every feminist. However, some of them do have popular feminist blogs or write for various publications. So I think it would be fair to say that the views expressed by feminists on that hashtag represent more than a minority point of view.

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