Boys are victims, except when girls have it worse

One of the interesting changes in discussing male victimization is the increasingly common feminist advocate for male victims. It is a curious thing to watch as these women suddenly become aware of the sexual violence men and boys experience. This awareness is indeed sudden, because despite the data showing a high rate of male victimization for years, these women, usually feminists, have just stumbled upon it.

What follows is typically an article or blog post detailing how the particular person now realizes how “serious” the situation is for men and boys. Those are not scare-quotes, by the way. As one will see below, usually the person does not actually think the situation is genuinely serious, nor do they have any real compassion or concern for male victims. The men and boys to whom they speak are merely tools to present the person’s narrative, which is either an attack on masculinity or a blatant attempt to control the conversation about male victimization.

Perhaps the most perplexing element is that in order to do this, the person usually recounts a man or boy’s actual experience, one which undermines to the dismissive argument to person with then proceed to make. For example, author Peggy Orenstein decided to interview a number young men for an article on The Cut. The article is part of the “How to Raise a Boy” series, which is bizarre on many levels considering the topic is sexually abuse against boys.

Orenstein interviewed a young man named Dylan who was raped by a woman will he was drunk. Orenstein used that account to go into a broader discussion about her conversations with boys over the years:

I’ve spent the last seven years interviewing high-school and college students about sex and emotional intimacy — the last year-and-a-half talking exclusively to boys. Of course, we discussed sexual violation. I’d assumed, at least for heterosexual boys, that we’d talk about what they thought it meant to get consent from a girl, how they’d define assault. What surprised me was how often the boys brought up their own experience of unwanted sex: encounters in which girls did not respect “no” or, as with Dylan, took advantage of them when they were drunk.

This is not that surprising if one bothers to speak with boys. One will find that these experiences are quite common. Indeed, if one listens to the conversations boys have among themselves, they share these experiences all the time, although they couch them in comedy. They tell them as jokes to protect themselves from the potential backlash and against any potential disbelief.

This does not address any of the underlying feelings the boys have, however, so they are left to deal with them on their own unless one of the other boys or someone else reacts negatively to the revelation. Even then, boys are more likely to write off the experience than admit they were harmed by it.

Ironically, Orenstein shows us why. She goes on to state:

I want to be clear: Girls bear the brunt — both physically and psychologically — of sexual harassment, assault, and rape, but they’re not its exclusive targets.

Why would you make that statement? What is the purpose of stating this if not to imply that what boys experiences physically and psychologically harms them less than girls?

How would one gauge such harm? Certainly one can gauge physical damage, but what of the psychological damage? How do you know without speaking with, let alone examining, boys that their psychological damage is less than that of girls?

This sort of comment undermines Orenstein’s point by suggesting she does not take sexual violence against boys that seriously. That is odd considering her immediate follow-up to her dismissive comment was this:

Middle- and high-school-aged boys report being the victims of dating violence, including physical abuse, at rates similar to girls. In a 2015 study, 43 percent of high-school and college boys said they’d been the victim of some form of sexual coercion — verbal, physical, substance-related — and 95 percent said the aggressors were girls. And large-scale surveys of college students — including the 21,000 who participated in the Online College Social Life Survey and the 9,616 involved in Columbia University’s Sexual Health Initiative to Foster Transformation — have found that roughly one in eight men have experienced something that meets the criteria for sexual assault; in over 80 percent of those cases, one study found, the perpetrators were female.

How can one cite such numbers and then state “girls bear the brunt — both physically and psychologically — of sexual harassment, assault, and rape?” The very numbers Orenstein cited of her own accord proof this argument wrong.

This is the issue male victims face. Even people who claim to want to help male victims are willing to dismiss men and boys’ experiences despite the evidence proving that assertion wrong.

Orenstein went on to state:

Even so, my first instinct was to dismiss boys’ accounts. They’re bigger than girls, stronger. How hard could it be for them to get up and walk away? Why not drink less? Were they really describing “assault” or just “bad sex?” Then I realized how I’d react if someone lobbed those same questions at a girl. Was it truly so different?

No, there is no difference aside from the one we place on the experiences. We ignore the myriad circumstances that might prevent a boy from getting up and walking away, from potential intoxication to a threat of violence or even a threat of a false accusation of rape. We ignore that boys are no more or less responsible for their drinking habits than girls. We ignore that boys can be victims of assault and not just experience bad sex.

Part of this false notion comes from traditional social norms and part comes from the feminist narrative that ironically mirrors Orenstein’s so-called fear:

Maybe my deeper fear was that surfacing boys’ stories would distract from the #MeToo progress of girls and women.

This is a very common reaction from those associated with any advocacy for female victims. They often feel that acknowledging male victims will “distract” from females’ experiences, as if those experiences are more important or more worthy of consideration. In most cases, the only instance in which these people will consider male victims’ experiences is if they feel they are countering:

[…] the notion that all boys are sexually insatiable, incapable of refusal, regret, or injury reinforces the most retrograde idea of masculinity.

There is no concern for the boys and men who are violated. The concern is only female victims, as Orenstein explains:

What’s more, if a boy is supposed to deny his own violation, how can he feel compassion for — or even recognize — a girl’s?

What a shallow, callous approach to a very real and serious problem. We should help male victims because then boys will feel compassion for girls?

Again, this attitude is quite common among those advocating for female victims, and since those are typically the people controlling the conversation about sexual violence, their attitude often becomes the norm for any advocacy for victims of sexual violence.

Orenstein goes on to cite a tiny survey of 80 students conducted by a post-doctoral student who found:

The women reported a broader range of incidents, from catcalls to forcible rape, and their accounts, unlike the men’s, were shot through with either actual or perceived threats of violence. Perhaps because of that, the men expressed less distress: They often minimized or laughed about what happened. “They’d say, ‘Maybe at some point there will be a case of a man coming forward, but I’m not going to be the one to make a big deal about it,’” Ford said. “Really, though, that was cover for the masculinity issue. What happened to them might be ‘rapey,’ but because a woman did it to a guy, it’s like, ‘Hey, you got laid.’”

Let us pause to consider something this post-doctoral student and Orenstein appeared to miss: perhaps the men did receive actual or perceived threats of violence, but did not report it because the assailant was female and they did not want to mocked.

This is yet another oversight that appears whenever advocates for female victims, feminists in particular, decide to “study” male victims. Instead of following through the data they received logically, and drawing conclusions that fit within the framework of what they found, the advocates and feminists twist the data to fit their narrative. It is not that men are afraid of how people will respond to their experiences, but that men have “masculinity issues.”

Yes, they do. These issues are caused by a society that will openly mock and dismiss them should they express feeling victimized by women. This attitude is then reinforced by advocates for female victims and feminists, who frame any sexual violation committed by women as unlikely, not traumatic, and ultimately not worth addressing unless doing so would prevent violence against women.

Oddly enough, when one sets aside the feminist doctrine and actually listens to men and boys, one finds:

Nearly 20 percent of the men Ford interviewed, like Dylan, said they’d been too incapacitated to refuse — some saying they’d been too drunk to walk. Most of the rest succumbed to something subtler: a voice in their heads that said, providing that a girl was neither too drunk nor too unattractive, guys should always be “down to fuck.” Refusing her advances would be awkward, unmanly, gay. Some even feared being rude. “They thought saying no to a blow job would hurt a girl’s feelings,” Ford said. “It seemed easier to just go along with it to end things.” That’s remarkably similar logic to girls who go down on guys without wanting to, especially during a hookup. They, too, were exquisitely tuned to gender expectations — the potential to be called a bitch or a prude — and worried about being “impolite.” They, too, would rather feel abused than risk humiliating or disappointing a partner. In either scenario, however, girls’ physical gratification was not a factor.

That it never occurred to Orenstein that men might feel a social expectation to go along with sex they do not want to have is baffling. Our society is built around men “accepting responsibility” and doing things they do not want to do because that is their “job as a man.” Why would this apply to every other aspect of men’s lives, from work to relationships, except for sex?

The irony of these kinds of articles is not only that the authors tend to reveal that they their “concern” for male victims is tepid at best, but also that males experience far more sexual violence than anyone assumed, and often the same way that females experience such violence.

Orenstein ends with this:

I ask Dylan one last question: What would’ve happened if the genders were swapped, if she’d been drunk and he’d been the sober aggressor. He laughed, without amusement. “Yeah, I’d be expelled. I’d be in jail right now. Because it was textbook, right? I was basically unconscious, I didn’t want to do it. There was no consent.”

That shows the remarkable difference in social responses to these acts. No one expects this girl to be expelled, let alone arrested or charged with a crime. She could record the act, display it on social media, and face little repercussion. Indeed, the victim could be a minor, not merely a teenager but someone under 10-years-old, and there is a very real possibility she would face no consequence aside from the video being pulled. She likely would not face public condemnation, unless she were a celebrity people wanted to take shots at.

There is no harm in people changing their minds about sexual violence against males, however, one needs to actually change one’s mind, not double down on the inaccurate views or peddle ridiculous nonsense like “girls bear the brunt — both physically and psychologically — of sexual harassment, assault, and rape.”

If you are willing to make such as statement in an article supposedly about highlighting the reality of sexual violence against boys, then you are doing more harm than good.

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9 thoughts on “Boys are victims, except when girls have it worse

  1. I don’t even know what to say about this Orenstein person, except that it’s completely obvious that she has been programmed by a poisonous ideology. Which doesn’t excuse her shameful attitudes.

  2. “Men’s rights activists must wake up and realize that the time for trying to counter the hypocrisy with rationality – with essentially male arguments, using facts and truth, in the hope that sense will prevail – is not going to make ANY difference to the relentless feminist long march on men” -Herbert Purdy ICMI-16 https://youtu.be/PjAnRar9p4M

    —————————————————————————————————-

    “Everywhere you look—everywhere you look!–there are feminists pushing their way to the front of the line demanding women’s “fair share” of all of the goodies, the good stuff, the loot, the booty, the cookies. Even if women don’t need it. Even if women don’t deserve it. And even if somebody else needs it and deserves it more.
    And they get it, because we give it to them”. -Karen Straughn (GirlWritesWhat)

    ———————————————————————————————————-

    “Let’s be clear; child support and alimony laws aren’t about caring for children. They’re about transferring as much money as possible from men to women.” -Robert Franklin Esq

    Every woman knows that if there was only male birth control, she would not feel in control, she would feel out of control. Saying “Trust me” from a man is laughable; “trust me” from a woman is the law. Birth control created the right of women to choose and the expectation of men to trust her. Today, every man who puts a penis in a woman’s body also puts his life in a woman’s hands. -Dr. Warren Farrell. The Myth of Male Power

    “The power to govern is a magnet for the predator class. That is why it is common for governments to evolve into crime syndicates. It is the nature of governments to expand their power. Since power leads to corruption, governments eventually become crime syndicates.” -G. Edward Griffen

    “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
    -Albert Einstein

    “To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards of men” -Abraham Lincoln

    There are many persons ready to do what is right because in their hearts they know it is right. But they hesitate, waiting for the other fellow to make the make the first move – and he, in turn, waits for you. -Marian Anderson

    For many years now, we’ve known two important things about “deadbeat dads.” First, they’re not deadbeats and second, they’re not always dads. -Robert Franklin

    “Men’s rights are human rights. If that sounds radical, you might ask yourself why you don’t consider men human”? -Hannah Wallen

    Red Pill knowledge is like discovering bits and pieces of the puzzle that need to be placed together to make sense – and the rabbit-hole is so deep that every time you may think that you reached the bottom, it goes further down. -Bluntruth

    “Child support is not meant for children. It’s a COMMUNIST transfer of wealth scheme.” –Paul M. Clements DADD

    “The federal incentives drive the system. The more divorces, and the higher the child-support guidelines are set and enforced (no matter how unreasonable), the more money the state bureaucracy collects from the feds. Follow the money. The less time that non-custodial fathers are permitted to be with their children, the more child support they must pay into the state fund, and the higher the federal bonus to the states for collecting the money.” – Phyllis Schlafly

    If a parent was beating a child in public, most people would intervene either by trying to stop the abuse or by calling the authorities. Mothers who limit fathers’ access to their children, who engage in maternal gatekeeping or who interfere with father-child relationships should be treated the same way, but aren’t.

    “IT COMES DOWN TO A BASIC BELIEF THAT TO ACHIEVE TRUE EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW, AND IN SOCIETY, WE CANNOT HAVE SPECIAL LEGISLATION OR DISPENSATIONS FOR WOMEN.”
    -ELLEN ZUCKER, PRESIDENT OF THE BOSTON CHAPTER OF N.O.W. BOSTON GLOBE, JULY 4, 1991

    It is clear that most American children suffer from too much mother, and too little father.” -Gloria Steinem

    “Everyone knows that restraining orders, and orders to vacate, are granted to virtually all women who apply- – – -In many cases, allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage.” ELAINE EPSTEIN, Past President, MA Bar Assoc. (Bar Assoc. Newsletter)
    “A parent normally assumes they have a legal right to bring up their child. Taken from numerous first-hand accounts, our legal system does not protect our children from a parent who is pathologically selfish. There is nothing written in law to uphold the equality that most parents assume is their legal right.“ -William Collins

    “Overwhelmingly in this country women get custody of the children; thus, overwhelmingly, they are the custodial parent. The evidence suggests that rather than being designed for the interests of children, the Guidelines were designed for the interests of mothers. Divorces are created to transfer amounts of wealth from non-custodial homes to custodial homes. Virtually every choice made in their construction leads to a net transfer.” -Economics professor Douglas Allen

    “Feminism cannot be negotiated with, it’s a female supremacy movement driven by the hatred of men and to me the idea that you can negotiate with feminists or that feminists will cede power to men and boys… it’s as fantastic as Jews in the Second World War thinking the Nazis would help them”. –Mike Buchannan. Justice for Men & Boys

    “It is difficult to ascertain who is the better parent based on the best interest factors when “a lot of custody cases” are decided after “10 minutes in front of a judge,” who cannot get an accurate picture of the family dynamics in such a short time.
    “The current law is not working,” she said. “… Without there being a standard, it really doesn’t depend on who is the best parent. It depends on what judge you have and what county you’re in”. – Linda Wright, chairperson of the Michigan chapter of the National Parents Organization
    ‘No man can sit down and withhold his hands from the warfare against wrong and get peace from his acquiescence.’ Woodrow Wilson (1856-1924)

    “Family- and the memories you make with family, are all we have going through life and all we can take with us!” -Clayton Dana Robertson

    “Child support is not meant for children. It’s a COMMUNIST transfer of wealth scheme.” –Paul M. Clements DADD

    “A Red Pill per day keeps the divorce lawyers way”
    -Sandman

  3. It must come as a shock to feminists to realize that men and boys are human too.

  4. “I want to be clear: Girls bear the brunt — both physically and psychologically — of sexual harassment, assault, and rape, but they’re not its exclusive targets.”

    Guaranteed to be said by women – and men – who have no direct experience of sexual violence. It’s easy to see what they’re doing, they’re trying to protect their rhetoric.

    “Maybe my deeper fear was that surfacing boys’ stories would distract from the #MeToo progress of girls and women.”

    This stunning lack of self-awareness of being part of the problem is unfortunately as a survivor no longer surprising to me, but I have heard much worse – I wish I hadn’t though. They are so gutless, bungling, useless and selfish that they don’t realise the damage they do to male abuse survivors, and they probably don’t want to know, rather make it about “mememememememememe!”

  5. Perhaps because of that, the men expressed less distress: They often minimized or laughed about what happened. “They’d say, ‘Maybe at some point there will be a case of a man coming forward, but I’m not going to be the one to make a big deal about it,’” Ford said. “Really, though, that was cover for the masculinity issue. What happened to them might be ‘rapey,’ but because a woman did it to a guy, it’s like, ‘Hey, you got laid.’”

    So when women choose not to talk about their sexual assault by men, that’s an issue WITH men (and The Patriarchy), and FOR women. And when men men choose not to talk about their sexual assault by women, that’s an issue with men (and masculinity).

    Hey, wait a second!

    “Maybe my deeper fear was that surfacing boys’ stories would distract from the #MeToo progress of girls and women.”

    So close to self-awareness. Of course, people were still downplaying men’s issues long before MeToo.

    I had a chat with one feminist recently ( more readable link) who looked at the situation in India. Men can only be victims of “sodomy” (and not as a sex crime, IIRC). Only women are “rape” victims. The government apparently wanted to change it so everything gets leveled to “sexual assault”, like Canada, but women’s advocates stopped them.

    Notice how the feminist, auntiewanda, is more concerned with the women losing their status as rape victims than the men who aren’t even recognized as sexual assault victims.

    James: Guaranteed to be said by women – and men – who have no direct experience of sexual violence. It’s easy to see what they’re doing, they’re trying to protect their rhetoric.

    Not exactly. Sometimes it’s men trying to rationalize away their own trauma. Or women who want to maintain the victimhood monopoly. I’ve seen plenty of women and girls online who claimed to be victims while making the same sort of misandric arguments as this article.

  6. “Not exactly. Sometimes it’s men trying to rationalize away their own trauma. Or women who want to maintain the victimhood monopoly. I’ve seen plenty of women and girls online who claimed to be victims while making the same sort of misandric arguments as this article.”

    While there is some truth to this – I tried to rationalise it myself when it happened to me, i.e. “I was thinking with my dick, my fault, I made a mistake, it won’t happen again” – I think that those who ARE survivors are quoting what they’ve been told by people who haven’t a clue what they’re talking about. See, some survivors are able to work it out and think it through, but it’s not easy, so it’s hardly surprising that many who can’t do that – can’t say I blame them – end up latching onto garbage like this, which has come from clueless fools with no experience of the problem, but prefer to make assumptions about it. Survivors have usually been told this by the former, because sometimes, understandably blinded by their own trauma, they aren’t able to see what is actually going on.

  7. “See, some survivors are able to work it out and think it through, but it’s not easy, so it’s hardly surprising that many who can’t do that – can’t say I blame them – end up latching onto garbage like this, which has come from clueless fools with no experience of the problem, but prefer to make assumptions about it.”

    I can believe there are some survivors who buy into false stereotypes and overgeneralizations when talking about the issue in the abstract. But the insensitivity displayed comes from more than just getting the facts wrong- it comes from totally misplacement of priorities regarding the issue.

    Gender politics matter more than the fact that lives have been shattered. Making a show of how loudly one can denounce perpetrators matters more than asking how one can help people looking the recover.

    I say this as a non-survivor myself. My views on the subject no doubt differ greatly from Peggy Orenstein’s. But just straight up forgetting, from time to time, that this is serious trauma for the people who have experienced it. I’m sure I’m guilty of that as well.

  8. Still at the blog, eh Jacob? You are a dogged one.

    “Instead of following through the data they received logically, and drawing conclusions that fit within the framework of what they found, the advocates and feminists twist the data to fit their narrative.”

    As Jordan Peterson has pointed out so clearly, “the narrative”, the ideology IS THE TRUTH, the proper conclusion. There can be no other. Across many, many other domains. Even “There is no biological sex. It’s a very popular misconception”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10fDRERJh4w When you can do that, erasing male victims is trivial.

    I quit this kind of male survivor advocacy work years ago because I realized, I witnessed the student interns and at my university the teaching of this postmodernist version of truth…. rape, sexual abuse of men and boys in a very real way doesn’t exist.

    This is an example of a vastly bigger political, epistemological, philosophical problem.

    As a practical matter, get good at detecting this belief system, and have absolutely nothing to do with such people.

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