Two more small comments about this subject and then I will move on.
One, a great deal has been made about Quesada using the term “ridiculous.” His exact words:
To think that the industry, Marvel, DC, or any publisher isn’t hospitable to female creators is ridiculous. The beauty of comics is that in a sense we creators are faceless. What I mean by this is that if this was the acting business or rock and roll, your appearance, gender, and ethnicity would have a lot to do with the kind of work and roles you get. Not so in comics, all that dictates the type of work you get is your talent. It doesn’t matter to us whether the person pitching a story is male, female, black, white, from some other country, or outer space, all we want is the most talented people on the planet.
Quesada’s use of the term “ridiculous” was to dismiss the claim that he, and the industry, is sexist. Is it fair to ask why there are no women in the top ranks of Marvel? Yes. But it is not fair to ask the question and then provide the answer. Instead of allowing Quesada to respond, he and every fan boy were automatically labeled sexists. Right off the bat, the question turns from why women are not in the industry to why are the men in the industry sexist. That is a personal attack, a grossly unwarranted one at that, and quite ridiculous. It demeans any points critics make because the intent obviously is not to have an open discussion about the industry, its creators and its audience. Instead, the focus is on the character of the male creators and fan boys, and ironically reinforces the commonly held idea that comics are “stupid.”
Two, Quesada’s comments about the merit of an artist’s work also received a great deal of flak. He stated:
But, let me also add, that just because there is a lack of female writers doesn’t mean that we’re going to hand out a charity gig to a female just because of her gender. That to me defeats the purpose. As a father of an only female child I would want all doors open within whatever field my daughter decides to one day choose. But I would also want her to walk through those doors on her own merits, not on the charity of others or to fill some quota, and I suspect that when she’s old enough to understand that, she’ll feel the same.
Now, you would have to be the epitome of naïve if you believe that a person’s appearance, whatever that may be, did not affect his likelihood of breaking into the industry. That said, Quesada’s makes a valid point. Any male breaking into this industry has to earn his chops the hard way. He gets no guaranteed in, regardless of how talented he may be. Why then should female creators get an opportunity not afforded to any other group? Are male creators somehow less deserving of that opportunity? If women cannot be judged on the merit of their work because such judgment is “subjective,” then why should males?
As a comic book fan, it truly disturbs me that something I enjoy now gets treated as yet another extension of “The Patriarchy”™. While the absence women in comics may raise several questions, the similar absence of males in the romance industry, self-help industry, or even the feminist movement also raises many of the same questions. You have it ask, if the latter is considered acceptable based on who the audience/supporters are, why should that not also apply to the former?
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See, everybody, the problem isn’t discrimination, it’s calling men names. There’s nothing *personal* about blithely perpetuating systems that shut people out, or implicitly discourage them from even trying, based on gender (or race, or sexual preference, or whatever). But calling a guy running a creative company with virtually no women creators sexist? That’s not Queensbury rules! Of course, some might call it simply changing the topic. I remember whenever I yelled at my little sister, “Why did you rip the pages out of my Spider-Man novel?” or “Why did you paint my ROM action figure with nail polish?” and she always responded “Why are you being mean to me?” This is like that.
Again, as far as I can tell all of this talk of a quota system designed to reward untalented women is purely your own (and Quesada’s) invention–a reactionary frame designed to change the subject, turn the questioner into the unfair one, and justify the current situation. But given your list of links, I can see where this bugaboo comes from.
Joe’s up-by-your-bootstraps rhetoric in that second quote could come straight from the GOP party platform. The context in which he voices it, and the history of the industry behind it, makes it laughable. The stance depends on a) pretending widespead discrimination against women hasn’t existed, b) maybe it did once, but that’s all taken care of and society is perfectly egalitarian now, or c) the real problem is in even discussing ways to redress imabalances, because ladies, it oppresses me.
What I assume Joey Q can’t say is that his form of mainstream comics, which used to be read by masses of boys and girls, decades ago got locked into a symbiotic relationship with a certain kind of fan, to the exclusion of other kinds of fans. The remaining fans, mostly in the direct market, dictated the content of the books, and to a large degree the kinds of creators allowed to tell those stories. Conversely, the books developed in a way that appealed to the core of young men who stuck with them, but drove mass audiences away. And here we are today. To arbitrarily declare off-limits accusations of sexism (conscious or otherwise) in this arrangement may serve your purposes, but it strikes me as absurd.
(Really, men’s rights is only half a degree less sad than white pride, “persecuted’ American Christians, or straight people who feel victimized by the gay agenda. Your time would be better spent collecting state quarters or learning the picolo.)
Wow. I think you set the record for the number of straw men in a given argument. Even Bill O’Reilly keeps his count fairly low.
But if you really think sites like Male Survivor, RADAR, S.A.F.E and SPR are “a degree less sad than white pride” (by the way, I am not white, so I am going to consider that a racist remark), that speaks volumes about your opinion on child rape, male rape and prison rape. That you consider my concern about those issues laughable is frankly disgusting.
The more general problem here is that a bunch of ignorants thinks that all art and aesthetics can be subordinated to or replaced with a politcal moralism which only goal and wisdom (or lack thereof) is 50 / 50 distrubutions based on sex.
Cole Moore Odell surely is just such a moralist. No one with any serious philosophical insight will take him seriously. Art will NOT yield to Identity Politics!
I think my problem with the Quesada response is this:
1. He calls the thought that the comics industry is biased toward males ‘ridiculous,’ therefore shutting down the argument before it even starts.
1a. He does this in the face of a number of claims from high profile creators like Taki Soma and Lea Hernandez that the comics industry discriminates against and harrasses female creators.
1b. He does this despite the fact that he has NO female creators working on his major books, as if that were a coincidence.
2. He then sets up a strawman, saying that letting women IN would be discriminatory. Marvel doesn’t have discriminatory hiring practices, Marvel just refuses to knuckle under and give out “charity gigs.”
And Hans Side, if you have to have certain physical characteristics just to get your art seen, then art IS yielding to identity politics.
Dropping In –
The idea that there is widespread discrimination based simply on sex is not sane.
Why would any company keep out talent? Businesses need to make money to stay alive – they cannot afford to keep away talent just because it has one sex or another.
It is all bout the Creation, its artistic value, and its subjective value in the marketplace – it is not about the gender or sex of the creator.
The Creation transcends the gender of the creator.
It is not the Comic Industry doing ID Politics here. It is the critics.
In order for Marvel to hire more women, Quesada would have to pass up male artists so as not to be slapped with a discrimination lawsuit. That means if two equally talented artists submitted the female artist would have to be hired, not because of her talent but because of her gender. If it were based purely on her talent, Quesada could say, “You draw well, but I like that guy’s style more” and not hire her. Under Affirmative Action, he could not judge her work on whether he “liked it or not.” If she is as good as the male, he must hire her. If she is better than the male, he must hire her. If she is worse than the male, he must hire her. That is discrimination, unless critics are using some other definition of the word.
Critics keep jumping back to the absence of any women on major titles as if that proves discrimination against women. Nevermind the fact that all the artists and writers Marvel has on its core books sell those titles on their names alone.
Hans: aside from the fact that “art and aesthetics” are somewhat tangential to a company’s atmoshpere and hiring practices, you state your gender-blind ideal as if that magically makes it reality. There are quite a few very real women who have experienced very real discrimination who would take issue with your confidence that “the creation transcends the gender of the creator”.
Again, please point out where I have demanded a 50/50 distribution based on anything. You fellas spend way too much time living in your own heads. Try arguing with what the other person said, rather than your fantasy cariacture of evil feminazis. How many times do I have to say I’m not insisting on a 50/50 (or any other percentage) quota before you guys stop saying I do?
Your disbelief that humans or their companies would ever make irrational decisions based on unfair biases demonstrates a stunning naivete of the human condition. If this is so, are you arguing that no companies have ever practiced gender discrimination, since clearly it wouldn’t be in their economic interest to do so? That’s the logical extension of what you’re saying, and it’s thoroughly demented.
TS: take my comments about men’s rights any way you feel you have to. I don’t know or care about your race; the analogy is to other movements where dominant groups play the victim in order to put noise into the political system and diminish the more common grievances of minorites. I deplore prison rape. I despise abuse of any kind, to anyone. But I can’t help noticing how sad the kind of people who glom onto these persecuted majority groups are, how they often spend most of their time using their oppression to nulllify the oppression of others in weaker positions. Look how easily Hans flatly denies that gender discrimination exists–becuase it isn’t rational, because everyone knows all human make all desicions on a strict cost/benefit basis like passionless robots.
Cole, I have met dozens of men and women who work to raise awareness and provide services to male victims of rape and abuse. None of their work derides the “more common grievances of minorities” (by the way, women are not a minority group). That is a strawman commonly thrown up because feminists foolishly think that acknowledging male victims will “steal” attention and money (it’s really about the money) away from the “real,” female victims. No one I have met who honestly despises “abuse of any kind, to anyone” would mock a person trying to prevent it from happening. Personally, I do not care that you support and condone the rape of boys and men. I do think it is incredibly telling that you would mock male victims while hiding behind the guise of “moral superiority.” And had you bothered to actually read any of my posts, you would know why I care so much about the issue. Instead, you attack me for it, as if wanting to stop boy and adult male rape is a character flaw. For one quick to accuse others of putting noise into the political system and diminishing peoples’ grievances, you did not waste anytime doing it yourself.
As to the 50/50 comment, I never made it, so ditch the strawman. If you have a solution other than applying Affirmative Action policies on Marvel’s hiring process, which would force Marvel to have a certain percentage of female creators (i.e. a quota), then you should state it. Since you think no woman can get hired on her talent alone because of sexism against women, I am quite curious to hear your suggestions. What would you do to hire more women at Marvel that would not involve Affirmative Action? How would that process be fair to all creators? And just to remind you, you cannot say “base it on talent” because that is the process now, and your claim is that no women have a chance of working at Marvel, ignoring that there are several women currently working on Marvel titles at the moment.
” I do not care that you support and condone the rape of boys and men.”
Thanks, TS. You’ve pretty well absolved me of any guilt I might feel over having mischaracterized or misjudged you. Your repeated tendency to resort to flat-out lies and gross slander in order to argue against some bizarro version of me tells me pretty much all I need to know. (Now you can say I started it by calling you a nazi, which would also be a willful misreading.)
Speaking of misreading, the 50/50 comment was clearly directed at Hans, (hence the “Hans:” at the beginning of that paragraph) who specifically asserted that was the goal of the critics.
My non-affirmative action quota solution to the imbalance in Marvel’s stable assumes a bunch of things that you would undoubtedly deny. I answer not so much for you as for anyone else reading:
1) Based on 30 years of reading the things, I know that many of Marvel (and DC’s) comics are horribly hostile to women, and that this could be changed by ceasing to reward writers who repeatedly, reflexively characterize women as insane, whores, monsters, pure objects or all of the above;
2) These companies have established histories of being run as clubs for misanthropic guys, and I think that these historic norms continue today in ways both subtle and overt; the stories of harrassment and attempted sexual extortion told by creators like Colleen Doran are horrible; to the extent that these norms still exist, I would root them out and can the perpetrators; I once worked for an ad agency where a male account exec paid a photographer at the summer party to take surreptitious cheescake shots of his female secretary in her swimsuit for his own use; when she found the pictures, she was transferred–he kept his job–so I don’t need Hans telling me that this kind of shit couldn’t possibly go down in our perfectly rational world; I’ve seen it with my own eyes
3) I don’t take every comment Joe Quesada makes at face value as the obvious, agenda-free truth; therefore I cannot agree with you that “base it on talet” is indeed the current and only criteria; further, I think that Joe’s cocky fratboy persona sends a clear signal as to the work environment he prefers, and the kind of fans/creators he wants; were I his boss I’d tell him to cut the crap and if he couldn’t I’d find an EiC who came off as less of a smug, snarky caveman; when comics press people asked me about the lack of women on any of my important books, instead of flipping off the hysterical harpies I’d welcome anyone to submit and say that I thought the collossal gender imbalance was unhealthy for the industry–because I think it is bad for the industry. As I think you said on the other post, many women are involved in comics, in the indie world and at manga publishers. That so few comparatively work for the Big 2 says more to me about the Big 2, both on the racks and behind the scenes, than about the enthusaism of talent of female creators
I don’t think you would ever realistically get to 50/50, given the material and the existing fan base, but I’m sure the numbers would change from the current “99.9%” male as Quesada claims. And I can’t see how that would be bad.
Cole, that was a good response, but you did not answer my questions. What would you do to hire more women at Marvel that would not involve Affirmative Action? How would that process be fair to all creators? And just to remind you, you cannot say “base it on talent” because that is the process now, and your claim is that no women have a chance of working at Marvel, ignoring that there are several women currently working on Marvel titles at the moment.
As for your points:
Give me one recent example from a Marvel title where women as a whole—not an individual character—were characterized as insane, whores, monsters, pure objects or all of the above. Misanthropic means “hatred of humankind.” I think the word you were looking for is misogynistic. And, shoujo manga is very different from the superhero stories the Big Two publish. They would lose most of their long-time fans and many of their casual fans if they suddenly tried to appeal to the niche market of female readers. That would be very bad for the industry, and given its current status, would probably crush it.
CMO –
As soon as you divert your attention from the creation and its qualities toward the qualities of the creater you are working with some kind of ideal for the creater, consciously or unconsciously. This is antithetical to art.
And CMO, thanks for confirming my theory that you are a political moralist:
“1) Based on 30 years of reading the things, I know that many of Marvel (and DC’s) comics are horribly hostile to women, and that this could be changed by ceasing to reward writers who repeatedly, reflexively characterize women as insane, whores, monsters, pure objects or all of the above;”
This is the hallmark of the totalitarian moralist. Not only do you want to decide the distribution of contributors. You also want the content to fit your own prejudices.
F*** art you say, Good Clean Family Entertainment that is what you want. Go read some Robert Crumb or Camille Paglia!
Nothing is killing art more than politcal correctness.
Well, here we are a week later and still no answer to my questions from CMO about how Marvel could hire more women without using Affirmative Action. No one can say I did not give him ample time to propose an answer that he felt was fair to both female and male creators. His lack of a response shows that this whole mess, from the complaints about Quesada’s non-sexist statements to the wild accusation that comics are a “bastion of sexism,” had more to do with making a political statement than examining the state of the industry or attempting to understand why few women are in the industry.
Whether critics like it or not, superheroes are a sub-genre within the larger genre of science fiction, and being such they attract a specific audience. There are rules and conventions that are expected in a superhero story, just as there are in high fantasy or hard science fiction, and to alter or break those rules and conventions simply to appeal to fans of another genre destroys the creativity and artistic value of comic books. Some genres attract certain audiences. No one has the right to “claim” the genre for their own because one group makes up a larger portion of the audience than another. To do so would change what the genre is and would be a slap in the face to all the fans who loved the stories as they were.
And honestly, if you feel Batman and Robin need to be female because you are female, that is no one is allowed to play off of the father-son dynamic because it is sexist, then not only do you not get the point of the characters, you are not a comic book fan.
Man, I didn’t respond because you’ve made it clear that there is no response that would satisfy you. You’ve already defined anything that would open up comics to more women (as readers or creators) as intolerable “affirmative action” which would unjustly rob more-deserving men of their rightful jobs, and ruin the fun of rightful male readers. As there is no way to win, I stopped trying. Chalk it up as a “victory” if it makes you feel better.
I am not trying to “win,” so there is no victory. I simply asked how Marvel could hire more women without doing so because of their gender. Instead of an answer you presented why you feel Marvel is sexist and then made a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. That does not address how Marvel would hire more women.
The irony is that not only do I not have a problem with having more female characters in comics, but that there are characters who I would like to see have their own books. But since I do not agree with your way of doing that (largely because I do not know what you want to do), you resort to ad hominem attacks and mock very serious issues like raising awareness of child rape. If you support feminism, that is fine. I do not because of the movement’s cavalier attitude towards male rape. However, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I would appreciate if you posted your comments here as opposed to Ragnell’s blog. It is rude and inconsiderate to try to bridge a debate across two blogs.
Also, your comments on her blog had some interesting implications. If you think I am a coward, state it and move on. I have been called worse and such a remark would not surprise me given my concern for issues you consider have little import. I might also suggest you read my blog.
I assume it is polite and considerate, however, to accuse me of supporting child rape on other people’s blogs. You’re really something else.
Please explain how “I mean, your friends already attacked and mocked me for raising awareness about the sexual abuse of boys, so thanks!” accuses you of supporting child rape.