What Mrs. Robinson actually looks like

I had a robust discussion on another thread concerning adult women having sex with teen boys. One commenters named Terry argued that most teen boys would love to have sex with an older woman. My position is that while most boys may fantasize about this, the reality of the situation proves untenable. The boys are not prepared for the situation, particularly the way in which adults will manipulate teens to get what they want.

Terry argued while this may be true for a small number of boys, most boys are “pussy hounds” and would face no trauma from a sexual encounter with older women. A recent case shows why that is untrue:

A former educational assistant who was working at Sir Robert Borden High School in Ottawa has been sentenced to 14 months in jail for sexually exploiting a student over a two-year period.

Katherine Kitts, 46, was arrested in October 2014 after a mother found sexually explicit texts on her son’s phone and contacted police with concerns about Kitts’s relationship with him.

The offences happened between April 2012 and April 2014 while Kitts was working at Sir Robert Borden High School. She had sex with the student repeatedly throughout those years, including in Kitts’s van, parked off school property.

Kitts was initially charged with sexual assault, sexual exploitation and telecommunication with a person under 18, but after pleading guilty to sexual exploitation in March, the other two charges were stayed.

Kitt’s lawyer asked for a 90-day intermittent sentence, meaning Kitt would go to jail on the weekends or a few days during the week, followed by probation. The lawyer claimed the abuse was unusual and out of Kitt’s character. The judge did not buy it, and with good reason.

Kitt abused the then 16-year-old boy over the course of two years. Her actions were not one-off, impromptu sexual romps. She exchanged 15,000 text messages with her victim. She attempted to keep the interactions a secret. She also intended to continue to the sexual abuse, going to the point of putting an inflatable mattress in her van.

At this point, Terry and those who think like him would argue that there is nothing wrong. It is merely a healthy expression of a woman’s sexuality with a willing teen boy. Yet as I noted on the other post, these situations are rarely so benign. The adult often manipulates the teen. Kitt is no exception:

In a statement read in court by the Crown in March, the victim said Kitts threatened to fail him if he ended things.

There goes the harmless fun. If there were really about sex or a genuine love for this boy, why would Kitt threaten to fail the boy? It appears Kitt had little interest in the boy as a person, and more interest in the boy as a hormone-driven living dildo. That the boy might have had genuine feelings for Kitt does not seem to factor in. All that mattered, based on what the article presents, is that Kitt got what she wanted and made sure that no one would catch her.

Had it ended at Kitt trying to hide the interactions, one could argue that there may not have been any psychologically abusive element at play. The moment, however, when Kitt decided to use the boy’s grades a way of keeping him silent, she revealed her true motives.

The boy recounted how this affected him:

“My innocence was destroyed by Mrs. Kitts,” the boy said in the statement.

The court heard Tuesday how the victim ‘drifted away’ from friends and family at the time because he was afraid they would find out what was happening.

He was also scared to go away to play sports because she might “snatch him,” the court heard.

Keep in mind, this was a 16-year-old boy. According to people like Terry, this boy should want sex with adult women every minute of every day. Yet here the boy describes fear of this woman constantly coming after him and fear of his friends discovering the truth.

Chances are that if we were to look at the text messages the pair exchanged their sexual encounters did not include any physical force. Chances are the boy initially went along with it. He may have thought he had everything under control.

Clearly he did not. When it got to the point where he had enough, all his “pussy hound” tendencies could not protect him. He lacked the experience or wherewithal to end their “relationship”. When Kitt decided to threaten him with something that would obviously get her fired, it worked on the boy.

It worked not because her threat was true, but because her victim was young enough and inexperienced enough for the threat of bad grades make him keep his mouth shut.

And again, this was a 16-year-old boy.

This was precisely why I stated in the comments on the other post, “It is not a question of whether teen boys are ready for sex. They are not. Their bodies may want to have sex and they may think about it constantly, but […] few of them are prepared for sex, let alone an adult relationship. We see time and time again how boys and girls who willing engage in such acts end up being used and exploited by the adults. This is particularly true for boys […]. They think they are in control and can handle it. When the reality of the situation actually hits them, that tends to fall apart. They realize the mess they are in and often cannot get out of it because the adult has the mental and social wherewithal to manipulate them.”

That is what happened here. This is the very reason why it wrong for adult women to have sex with teen boys. No matter how much boys’ bodies tell them to sex have, their minds are not mentally prepared to deal with the situation, particularly with an adult. It takes so little to manipulate them, even as they are entering adulthood, it is almost laughable.

Anyone who thinks that it would be right for an adult to have sex with a teenager because the teenager “wants” it demonstrates a severe lack of understanding and common sense.

These situations do not end well.

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30 thoughts on “What Mrs. Robinson actually looks like

  1. Hello Toysoldier, wonderful blog and you are doing everyone a huge service by getting the word out. I just wanted to share with you a story concerning my wife’s ex to add credence to your position. For the sake of brevity, my wife was in a poor relationship with her serial cheating ex.

    She has no idea how many affairs he’d had, but she had caught him MANY times (she was a hard learner.) Here she was at her sister’s house celebrating a birthday party for her nephew. One of his female friends, who was about 14 at the time, was there and seemed to take a shining to her ex.

    My wife was aware that he had bad judgement, but it never crossed her mind that he would actually make a move on a minor. They all had thought that he couldn’t be THAT stupid. Everyone had jokingly told the girl to cool it, chalking it up to young infatuation and figured it wouldn’t escalate beyond ‘cute’ flirting.

    As the party went on, nobody initially noticed that the girl and ex seemed to dissappear. Wife’s niece went looking for her but everyone had gone on with their merriment.

    Then a scream came from the seperate garage. Niece came across the scene with ex fondling the now catatonic young girl and had screamed in shock. They were separated and Wife gave ex the 3rd degree then his walking papers!

    The fallout; no he sadly didn’t get charged (she just wanted to forget the whole thing happened) and he was never permitted on their property again. Didn’t make a difference because as I said, this was THE last straw for my wife.

    Here’s the point of my tale: this 14 year old girl had given ex ALL the signals that she was interested and actually wanted things to escalate. She willingly had sequestered herself with him to a more private location and even intensified her signals. However….everything changed the moment he actually acted on them which was clearly evident on the expression on her face and her behavior.

    Fantasy is one thing, reality is completely different. I was one of those guys who thought as Terry had. ‘lucky bastard’ I would think hearing about some attractive older lady making moves on younger dudes. Then the reality set it after reading stories that you relate here.

    That poor young girl had no idea what she was doing and DID NOT deserve what happened to her. Neither do the poor young men whose stories you share on this site.

  2. I think the take-away from that discussion is the ignorant opinion of “Lucky Bastard” for unwilling young male victims of sexual abuse from older women is still alive and will likely never go away anytime soon.

  3. I’d also like to add that Terry and River are perfect examples of two opposing extremes yet are both highly toxic. Watching them go at each other is like seeing Regressives from both ends of the political isles scream at each other.

  4. Well, unfortunately, that poor young girl found out the hard way the dangers of leading on and otherwise enticing an older man who himself was using extremely poor judgment. Hopefully she learned her lesson. I have great compassion for her.

    And I have compassion for sensitive, vulnerable and fragile “poor young men” in their teens who feel as if their “innocence has been stolen.” They are clearly not ready for sex, and are unable to deal with — i.e., defend themselves against — manipulation by older women. But “fragile and sensitive” and “innocent” are not adjectives I would use to describe the guys I ran with in my teens.

    Everybody’s different. People mature at different times in their lives. Some of my peers in high school looked and acted like mature men. Others retained the personae of little kids throughout college and beyond.

    I would therefore think that the ages of males and females having sex is not as important as their level of maturity, and how quickly they were able to get the hang of life. After all, to this end, the age of consent has varied quite a bit throughout the years in different cultures. Sometimes May-December alliances work, sometimes not.

  5. Why are you putting all that in parenthesis, Terry. That’s just another illustrative example of your apathy.

  6. “I think the take-away from that discussion is the ignorant opinion of “Lucky Bastard” for unwilling young male victims of sexual abuse from older women is still alive and will likely never go away anytime soon.”

    So what we need to do is hit this ignorant opinion in the crosshairs and reveal just how repugnant it really is. just how much it hurts innocent men who are taken advantage of in this manner. Judgy Bitch talks a lot about the apparent Empathy Gap so many men face and I think it’s high time that people realize just how toxic this is to so many who need a voice.

  7. I guarantee there are more teenage girls who fantasize about older boys and men than boys who fantasize about older women. And I used to work in a highschool.

    Girls are more prone to want attention. It emotionally stimulates their minds so it makes them feel “special” when they get that attention from the “hot male teacher”. They think they can intellectually conversate with them more than the boys their age, but the fact is they have a lot of tricks up their sleeve when they face reality.

    And my point with all this is that females use a sense of innocence to get their way in and out of a situation. They have been taught they can do no wrong at early ages, so when they get themselves into a pickle, they can only use what they’ve been taught. And it includes whether they attempt to or do get away with crime, which they tend to get away with a lot of crime.

  8. To Eagle From Terry: What parenthesis? There’s not one parenthesis in my September 6, 2016, 3:40 pm post. And even if there was, what connection would that have with apathy?

  9. Hmmm. Just occurred to me that perhaps Eagle doesn’t know the difference between parenthesis, like this: ( ), and quotation marks, like this: ” “. I was using quotation marks in my Sept. 6th, 3:40 p.m. post to quote words and phrases referred to earlier. That’s the main purpose of quotation marks.

    For example, in the last sentence of the Sept. 6th, 11:31 a.m. post by some guy who refers to himself by a word that doesn’t exist, Omnipitron, he uses the phrase “poor young men” to describe male victims of sex abuse. I quoted his use of that phrase, but much to my embarrassment, I erred when putting the words “their innocence has been stolen” in quotation marks. The correct quotation should have been “My innocence was destroyed…” That is, when referring to a statement by a 16 year old boy earlier on this page.

    I erred because I had been thinking of many other comments from young men caught with older women who used the “stolen innocence” phrase in court. One such 15 year old had been bragging to his buddies that he nailed a 24 year old teacher. He even brought some of his pals into a room with the teacher and invited them to feel her up.

    After he was caught, a reporter asked him if he felt abused. This 5′ 10″ “child” with a mustache smirked and said, “No, we took advantage of the teacher.” But in court he played the “poor innocent victim” card and was not held accountable.

    Indeed, if a teenage boy had consensual sex with a teenage girl, he could be charged with statutory rape and prosecuted. But if his victim is an older woman, he becomes the victim.

    And some of them ARE victims! Indeed, as a lot of people on this blog are apparently overlooking while spewing bile at me, I realize that there are boys who have been traumatized and damaged emotionally as a result of unwanted sex with older women. And, once again, I have compassion for those boys, and hope that with proper help, they are able to recover and heal.

  10. Terry:

    Well, unfortunately, that poor young girl found out the hard way the dangers of leading on and otherwise enticing an older man who himself was using extremely poor judgment. Hopefully she learned her lesson. I have great compassion for her.

    That is a curious combination of words. It is, however, consistent with the views you expressed concerning teen boys, so there is that.

    And I have compassion for sensitive, vulnerable and fragile “poor young men” in their teens who feel as if their “innocence has been stolen.” They are clearly not ready for sex, and are unable to deal with — i.e., defend themselves against — manipulation by older women. But “fragile and sensitive” and “innocent” are not adjectives I would use to describe the guys I ran with in my teens.

    No one ever does, yet that does not mean those boys were not fragile, sensitive, or innocent. Teen boys put on an act in order to look more mature and ready than they really are. To fall for that obvious a con is most unusual for an adult.

    Everybody’s different. People mature at different times in their lives. Some of my peers in high school looked and acted like mature men. Others retained the personae of little kids throughout college and beyond.

    That is true. However, that has little to do with adults deciding to have sex with teenagers.

    I would therefore think that the ages of males and females having sex is not as important as their level of maturity, and how quickly they were able to get the hang of life.

    One’s level of maturity is typically affected by one’s age. This is not merely a question of a number but of how a person’s mind develops. A 10-year-old simply lacks the ability to understand the full weight of their decisions. It is not a matter of intelligence or maturity. That same 10-year-old could be responsible for the bills and make sure they are paid on time. Yet due to the stage of neural develop, they literally lack the ability to foresee long-term consequences.

    The same applies with teenagers, and is magnified by their hormonal changes. They often know that what they are doing is risky, stupid, and illegal, yet their brains are literally hardwired at that stage to ignore these things. They genuinely cannot help themselves. Likewise, even though their bodies have matured, their brains often have not. It is not uncommon for someone at 14 or 15-years-old to essentially have the same understanding of long-term consequences as someone three or four years younger.

    It takes time and life experience to change these perceptions. However, the teen could always put on an act and pretend to know and understand more than they do.

    I erred because I had been thinking of many other comments from young men caught with older women who used the “stolen innocence” phrase in court. One such 15 year old had been bragging to his buddies that he nailed a 24 year old teacher. He even brought some of his pals into a room with the teacher and invited them to feel her up.

    After he was caught, a reporter asked him if he felt abused. This 5′ 10″ “child” with a mustache smirked and said, “No, we took advantage of the teacher.” But in court he played the “poor innocent victim” card and was not held accountable.

    Yes, there are some people who lie about rape and abuse. There are also people who put on an act in order to avoid public humiliation. It could be that the boy played the system. It could also be that he was abused and merely attempted to behave in the way he thought people expected, which in this case would be to consider himself a “lucky bastard”.

    Indeed, if a teenage boy had consensual sex with a teenage girl, he could be charged with statutory rape and prosecuted. But if his victim is an older woman, he becomes the victim.

    Actually, there are plenty of instances of teen boys facing sex offense charges due to their actions against women. Given how unlikely it is for prosecutors to go after women who abuse children, it would not do most boys any good to lie. It is a big gamble that only occasionally pays off.

    And some of them ARE victims! Indeed, as a lot of people on this blog are apparently overlooking while spewing bile at me, I realize that there are boys who have been traumatized and damaged emotionally as a result of unwanted sex with older women. And, once again, I have compassion for those boys, and hope that with proper help, they are able to recover and heal.

    This is a blog dedicated primarily to addressing sexual violence against men and boys. You came to this blog and made sweeping claims about male victims. It is only natural that people would respond negatively to this.

  11. Terry and River, with all due respect, both of you shut up. I’ve had it up to here with your extremism.

  12. You know what Ealge? I’ve been through enough where I understand women (and no, I don’t mean in the “defense” way). And I cannot imagine why anything I’ve said would offend you this much personally. The other poster Terry I can see why.

    I totally get the patterns of mindsets among youth. Girls are speaking in oversexualized manner than ever before. And speaking of feminism, they do it because they believe all men speak about sex with vulgarity and they think they can “do it too”. It’s the reason movies like Bridesmaids, and Bad Moms exist. They “think” they are competing with what they perceive to be the “crude humor” that “only men” have.
    But they act so innocent about it, and wonder why they get what they get.

    Like I said, I used to work in a highschool. Girls want college guys, that 20-something math teacher, etc…

    …Then when they get older, they decide to boost their self esteem by lusting after younger men or boys.

    They could do no wrong.

  13. Extremism, Eagle? Well, in any case, I’m all for anybody being able to write anything they want. No censorship. As Harry Truman said, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen — go someplace where free expression is not allowed.

  14. Yes, extremism, Terry.
    By both of you.

    River:“Another case of women who need to learn their place. Actually, all females need to learn their place no matter the age or what they do. I am a definite advocate on that.
    I’m so glad people are showcasing what females are like.”

    Terry: “People who comment on these cases seem to be under the delusion that the teenage boys involved are some kind of delicate little Lord Fauntleroys who would horribly traumatized by sex. Au contraire. I peaked sexually at 14, and I, along with just about every other kid around the same age that I knew had an all consuming desire for sexual intercourse. We were pussy hounds of the first order, searching with passionate frenzy for a Mrs. Robinson. Wish the hell I had known someone like Julie when puberty came on like gangbusters at age 12. Indeed, re so-called “abuse,” a comedian put it best when he said that the real victim was not the kid who had sex, but the next guy in line hoping to get laid, too.”

    Seriously, I don’t want to hear anymore of your backpedaling.

  15. I haven’t been backpedaling, but trying to point out more clearly that, re the above comments and similar ones, I was referring to myself, the guys I hung with, and SOME of the boys mentioned in news stories about teen guys having sex with older women. I wasn’t suggesting that all boys are the same. I know there are boys who have been genuinely traumatized, and I feel for them, despite never having met any.

    Instead, I see over and over these smirking adolescent guys playing the “innocent child” role in court to keep from being held accountable for exploiting vulnerable and even naïve female teachers.

    And then, of course, sometimes the teachers do the exploiting. But based on my experience, there seems to be a lot more of the former than the latter.

  16. Terry: “I know there are boys who have been genuinely traumatized, and I feel for them, despite never having met any.”

    Gee I wonder why they wouldn’t want to meet you.

    Terry: “Instead, I see over and over these smirking adolescent guys playing the “innocent child” role in court to keep from being held accountable for exploiting vulnerable and even naïve female teachers.”

    “And then, of course, sometimes the teachers do the exploiting. But based on my experience, there seems to be a lot more of the former than the latter.

    Vulnerable and Naive Female Teachers? “Sometimes” the teachers do the exploiting?
    Yeah, I really wonder why teenage victims wouldn’t want to meet you.

  17. Ealge, you keep quoting the same thing over and over again. Do you even read my posts? That’s not the only thing I’ve said.
    I’ve raised way more points than that, just saying.

  18. To Eagle from Terry, re your 9-7-16 6:30 p.m. post:: Sorry to hear that you sound so bitter and biased regarding my posts. You make me sound like a person abused boys would not want to talk to while saying to each other something like, “Stay away from that guy! He doesn’t care about us!” Not true. I’ve been in therapy groups in which the participants — teenagers to old men — discussed all kinds of abuse. We confided in each other and offered mutual support and advice on how to heal and move on with our lives.

  19. I should clarify that the boys I met in therapy groups were physically abused by their parents and strangers. Some were sexually abused, but not by their female teachers. Which is why I said in my earlier post that I had never met guys who had sex with their teachers.

  20. Re Toy Soldier’s reply to me on 9-7-16 at 12:20 a.m.: My teenage friends and I would know, from years of interacting, who was real and who was not. If one of us tried to pretend to be someone he was not, we would know instantly.

    During my youth in the 1950s we heard about a 14 year old, Sonny Wisecarver, who, just ten years earlier, newspapers all over the country called “The Woo Woo Kid,” because he’d been caught having affairs with older women. One woman had just been married but still ran off with Sonny because, as she said, he had more bedroom skills than a man.

    Thousands of teens idolized Sonny. Including most of the boys I knew. Indeed, we adored him and burned with envy over his affairs.

    But there were a couple of guys on my block who were obviously pretending to join in with everybody else to fit in. One boy we suspected of being “a queer,” as they said in the days before the word “gay” was used to describe a homosexual.

    But this guy behaved himself, stayed in the closet and was a good dude, so we liked him. About 20 years later he came out and that was fine with those of us who still knew him.

    A couple other boys tried to act all excited over Sonny, but we could see that their enthusiasm was rather feigned. Because they were shy, awkward, sensitive, fragile and perhaps even socially impaired as a result of some psychological problem. In any case, they really weren’t all that gung ho, like the rest of us, over the idea of having sex with one of Sonny’s older girlfriends. In fact, the shy boys weren’t even comfortable talking with and dating teenage girls. But most of us didn’t make fun of them because we all grew up together and pretty much accepted each other, regardless of our differences.

    So, anyhow, to sum up, the horn dogs among us would have spotted a faker right away.

  21. Terry-

    I hadn’t heard of Ellsworth Wisecarver before, but I have to say it’s an interesting and troubling story.

    The papers in the 40s and 50s (and even a movie in the 80s) made him out to be some sort of folk anti-hero who swept women off their feet, meanwhile in reality he had literally been thrown in prison (for the crime of having been raped?), forced to live under a fake name, and struggled to make ends meet.

    I found a newspaper article about him where they tracked him down as an adult in the 1970s. He was working as a bus driver (how glamorous) and seemed beaten down by the world and very bitter. He hated the nicknames the press gave him, called the whole thing a crock, and noted that he never heard from EITHER of the two women who ran off with him as a teenager again. His third marriage ended in divorce as well.

    The two women received no punishment, even though one had abandoned her own children to run off with him.

    A lifelong smoker, he died in obscurity of lung cancer in 2005.

    I don’t have to “fake” anything, Terry. I do not in any way envy Sonny the sad bus driver or have any enthusiasm for what his life became.

    -Interesting side note: Sonny met his first abuser in 1944 when she went out to get the mail and he whistled at her. So the next time someone says “when has that ever worked?”, it apparently did once. Kinda.

  22. In response to Eagle’s last line, I know of some teenage “victims” that would probably love to meet Terry. Since he is in their defense, always.

  23. You used the words “abuser” and “raped,” as if Sonny was sexually victimized. He was the one who pursued women, wooed them and shared mutual pleasure with them while Sonny and these ladies fulfilled each other’s needs. They didn’t seek him out.

    Indeed, when I hear the word “rape,” I think of a woman suffering a terrible violation of her body, and not a precocious teenage boy convincing a woman to have sex with him.

    I understand, though, that there are boys who have been abused and traumatized by older women manipulating them into having sex. But even then, I believe the correct description should be sexual assault, or sexual abuse, and not rape. Because legally, a female forcing a male’s erect penis in her vagina is not considered rape.

    You said Sonny’s two lady friends never received any punishment. They were not incarcerated, but were, in fact, found guilty in court and received terms of probation, as well as fines.

    Sonny was not “literally thrown in prison…for having been raped?” as you suggested in such a lurid and alarmist manner. Actually, his parents had him declared an incorrigible delinquent and he spent some time in a California Youth Authority (reform school) work camp before escaping. Later in life he served short prison terms for minor crimes.

    Every guy I knew in my teens would loved to have been Sonny when he was young and on the run with two hot babes. If I’d been able to sow my wild oats in that way, I would have relished the experience. And then made better choices later on so that I would not have become “the sad bus driver” to which you referred. Despite Sonny’s troubles as an adult, he still had free will to choose a better path.

    I don’t quite understand your “don’t have to ‘fake’ anything” comment — how that relates to you and what I said in my previous post. I didn’t refer to you in that post, but to teenage boys I knew who might try to pretend to be someone they were not, and how we — a group of boys who all grew up together, and knew each other quite well — could spot a faker right away.

  24. Terry,

    If we looked at your comments and assumed this is how you would generally speak, it would be fair to conclude that abused boys would not confide in you. Your comments and tone are dismissive at best and emasculating at worst. You use the words “fragile” and “sensitive” to refer to male victims of abuse several times. This implies that you think only “weak” males are victims of abuse, particularly at the hands of women. I can see no reason why any man or boy would share his experiences of abuse with you if this is the way you would speak to him.

    As for sexual abuse by female teachers, it is uncommon. Most female abusers are family members or close friends of the family. It is also something that most males would not necessarily view as abuse even if they did not like the sex. So it is unlikely that many men would reveal such abuse had it occurred. There is simply too much at risk.

    I doubt that you could spot someone faking the masculine of the 1950s and 60s. It is possible, unless the person maintained the pretense from the start. This happens quite often, particularly if a person comes from an environment that requires certain types of behavior, like a religious community or a poor community. If that were the case, you would have no idea until they dropped the act. That is not to say that your friends necessarily did this. It is only to say that it simple to maintain a false face.

    I am sure you and other boys idolized Wisecarver. Yet there is a difference between idolizing someone and actually experiencing what the person went through. In Wisecarver’s case, he wound up with very little in the end. According to reports about him, his second relationship landed him in jail:

    While working in a Long Beach, Calif., tuna cannery he met a shapely, sassy, married brunette named Eleanor Deveny at a boarding house. They went out together for hamburgers one night and never came back. Eventually apprehended by a sheriff (Deveny’s husband was a Gl stationed in postwar Japan), Sonny was brought back to Los Angeles and slapped into the L.A. county jail. “It was kind of ridiculous,” he says now. “I was the only kid in there with a lot of hardened adult criminals. Fortunately I was kept in a cell by myself.”

    A juvenile court judge called Wisecarver a sexual delinquent who was “leading, or in danger of leading, an idle, dissolute, lewd or immoral life.” In addition to his most famous nickname, newspapers called him What-a-Man Wisecarver, the L.A. Lothario, the Love Bandit and the Beardless Don Juan. Sonny’s final sentence: time in a California youth camp until he turned 21. “What no one ever thinks about when my story gets retold,” says Sonny, now 58, “is that they always turned the women loose, and I ended up in jail.”

    I am sure that you and your friends did not know the details about about Wisecarver’s arrest and imprisonment. I would gather that none of you knew that he would end up working “as an occasional tour-bus driver and as boss of his own telephone installation company” that was on the verge of failing. That is not very glamorous, which Wisecarver admitted in an interview.

    However, you made a lot of assumptions without anything to back it up. I doubt the “horn dogs” among your group would have spotted a convincing faker. When a person is exceptionally good at faking something, they are convincing to the point no one would believe them if they revealed it was a lie. I suspect that in this instance, the horniest of the “horn dogs” probably had no interest in Wisecarver at all. It was probably an act to fit in, and it clearly worked.

    You also mentioned the legal definition of rape. It depends on the state. In California, a female forcing a male’s penis into her vagina is legally rape. In Illinois, we do not have a rape statute. We have criminal sexual assault, of which the aforementioned act would count.

    Many states replaced rape with sexual assault. Other states have multiple types of potential sex offenses, and use them depending on the case. Utah and Missouri have statutes like this. Despite their first-tier sex crimes technically counting the above act, in both states the prosecutors would likely charge the cases under the sodomy laws.

    Your choice of words, however, was interesting. You previously stated “when I hear the word ‘rape,’ I think of a woman suffering a terrible violation of her body”. This would imply that the violation makes the act rape. Yet when you describe “a female forcing a male’s erect penis in her vagina”, you say this is not rape even though you are essentially describing a terrible violation of a man or boy’s body.

    This statement reminds me of a scene from a documentary about the Vietnam war. The scene starts with a little boy wailing. It cuts between this crying child and a senator talking about the Vietnamese. The senator claimed that the Vietnamese were not like the rest of us. They did not have feelings. They could not experience love or sadness. The film cuts back to the boy dripping with tears and holding his father’s picture as the crowd of men bury his father’s body.

    I am always amazed by that level of cognitive dissonance. To see the very thing you say cannot happen happen before your eyes and yet still claim it cannot be true. I lack the skill to twist my mind that much, but it is fascinating to watch others do it.

    However, I am curious: do you realize the contradiction as you make it, or does it never occur to you?

  25. PS- I’m going to stand up for Terry here a bit, because he is old. Quite frankly, it seems that men of his generation had no choice but to internalize anti-male stereotypes. They grew watching increasingly pro- feminist television, listening to increasingly pro- feminist music, but there was no internet for them to talk to each other and get the other side of the story. They watched Ralph Kramden, then Fred Flintstone, then Archie Bunker, then Al Bundy. All buffons, and all fictional. What they didn’t see was the REAL guy next door trying desperately to support his wife’s lifestyle and career choices while she mocked him without cause. They didn’t see their friend trying to figure out what just happened when his aunt touched him. The gender neutral rape laws that Terry apparently does not realize exist actually didnt exist until he was in his 20s or 30s. They sound as nutty to him as affirmative consent does to us. The Wisecarver case intrigues me because it seems downright obvious to me that Sonny’s first wife was textbook grooming him for blatant statutory rape- and yet at the time blatant statutory rape was legal! Thus the papers couldn’t process what happened, aside from something was wrong. So they assumed it must have been Sonny’s fault somehow. His peers knew that was backwards, but they also couldn’t process women as perps, so they just assumed he was a hero.

  26. Well, it was interesting to read what you thought was going on in my head, Peter, but you got most of it wrong.

    Much of the youth of my generation that I knew didn’t “internalize anti-male stereotypes,” except maybe a few lames who favored Pat Boone while most teenage boys idolized guys like Elvis, James Dean, John Wayne and bodybuilders like Steve Reeves (“Hercules”). And, of course, the rare, fortunate horn dog like Sonny Wisecarver.

    But aside from the whole testosterone/sex thing, we were inundated with very pro-male, macho stereotypes that a lot of guys tried to emulate.

    But I wasn’t buying it. To me, all the tough guy posturing that a lot of my peers got caught up in seemed phony, trite, and just a lot of cornball theatrics. Maybe I’d become jaded and overcome with weltschmerz at any early age. In any case, I always had a very stubborn, independent mind — a nonwashable brain, as I told the nuns — and tended to go my own way, off the beaten path and away from the trained seals and sheeple.

    I noticed that macho bluster often hid deep seated feelings of inadequacy. Especially among bullies who struggled the most with insecurities, which they tried to cover up with aggressive behavior, and condescending, chauvinistic attitudes towards females. Who were only acceptable if they kept their place. That is, subservient to men. The old story of a weak man trying to raise himself up and feel strong by putting someone else down. Oftentimes a woman. (Sounds like the attitude of River, on this blog.)

    In any event, I became aware even before puberty that guys are supposed to be strong, and girls are considered weak. In response, I thought, Who dreamed up this bullshit? Because I knew weak boys and strong girls. I eventually decided that maybe a better way to look at boys and girls, and men and women, was to accept everybody for what they are, rather than criticize them for not falling within some rigid stereotype.

    When the Women’s Lib movement came along, talking about — among other things — weak men who were intimidated by strong, independent women, I thought, wow, these are my kind of people! As an adult I developed friendships with feminists and eventually became a lifetime member of the National Organization for Women.

    These enlightened ladies didn’t wallow in a lot of tortuous, ideological discussions or debates (like those that appear on this blog). Instead, they just accepted my friendship and help with practical matters. Like doing maintenance work at shelters. One time, a staff member told me that they welcomed my technical assistance, but what they appreciated the most was the presence of a man who was secure enough with himself to interact on an equal basis with strong, assertive women. And in the process, show the abused women in the shelters that there are men who are not like the ones who abused them.

    By the way, I couldn’t stand “The Honeymooners” with Ralph Kramden. Seemed like all Jackie Gleason ever did on that depressing show was come up with ridiculous, half-baked plans for success, and especially yell at Alice, while threatening her with his trademark “to the moon” gesture, complete with a clenched fist. Really stupid.

    And I never watched Fred Flintstone. To me, it was just another silly-ass, inane cartoon. The only cartoon I liked was the Road Runner.

    I didn’t care, either, for so-called wholesome family shows like Ozzie & Harriet, Father Knows Best, The Danny Thomas Show and other highly unrealistic, goody-goody programs with nauseating, simple-minded plots.

    But, like much of the country, I loved Archie Bunker! He burst on the scene as a refreshing alternative to the sanitized drivel of the past. Sure, he was a buffoon, but considerably more realistic than his predecessors.

    Married with Children was another favorite. Al Bundy’s comedic lines made us laugh, but a lot of my peers focused on Christina Applegate in the same that they did a generation earlier while checking out Annette Funicello, as she blossomed almost monthly on the Mickey Mouse Show.

    And I doubt that Sonny Wisecarver needed much “grooming.” He pursued women — not the other way around. The guys I went through puberty with lusted after many a grown woman in the same way that Sonny did. But Sonny went a step farther and actually got a couple of hot babes! Didn’t matter that he floundered later in life. As a teenager, he was a hero to all of us who desperately wanted to get laid, too.

    As I recall, the very few of my friends and schoolmates who managed to sow their wild oats in their mid-teens enjoyed the experience without becoming traumatized. They were more than ready to surrender their “innocence.”

    But as I’ve mentioned here before, I have compassion for boys who suffered as a result of sex with an older woman.

  27. “These enlightened ladies didn’t wallow in a lot of tortuous, ideological discussions or debates (like those that appear on this blog). Instead, they just accepted my friendship and help with practical matters. Like doing maintenance work at shelters.”

    I’d like to accept your friendship and help with practical matters too, Terry. If you are willing to offer it.

    This has come up before here- there is no shelter for abused men anywhere in a ten-county area around Chicago. There are men and boys in need of and even actively looking for something like that, but no funding and no knowledgeable volunteers. I’d love to start something if I can find enough people who have true compassion.

  28. Pingback: Top Posts of 2016 | Toy Soldiers

  29. I love your blog and I do agree that there will be many young men who are indeed immature and many female adult manipulators, but from my own personal experience at 15 I had an interesting and positive relationship with a 31 year old.

    It lasted 6 months because indeed anyone with intelligence begins to realize the different stages of life after the honeymoon period. It may have been different if I was 25 and she 41. We remained friends for over a decade then lost touch. I would not retrospectively pursue her with rape charges, but we all know that in many similar instances where the genders have been reversed women are happy to do so for financial gain.

    Then there was the young woman who swore that she was 16in an attempt to bed my 17 year old self. Thankfully I had the foresight to take her home against her wishes at which time here mother went nuts because she was in fact 14. Swings and roundabouts. 😉

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